Letting Shop Build Motor VS Building it at Home

[DeNoZZo]

I checked the crank with my fingernail and two of the journals have little scuffs, it seems like they would polish out though. Is this a concern?

 

[lacroixdp]

I would let a machine shop make that determination for you. Some very thin scratches can be micropolished out. IMHO, I'd buy a new crank before I let them turn it if it comes down to that.

 

[BogusSVO]

I checked the crank with my fingernail and two of the journals have little scuffs, it seems like they would polish out though. Is this a concern?

with out looking or mic'ing it, I would say take it to the machine shop and have it check and a polish would be what is needed.

Id you have any sharp edges on it, you could end up scraping the bearing insert and then packing the oil hole in that journal causing a lack of oil flow , then on to the rod or main knocking.

I would say, you really do not want to have to go back a redo the lower end.

 

[Iroc_g]

Ill say this once and leave it alone. Pay somebody with the proper tooling and know how to machiene ALL of your parts. Nothing comes right out of the box. Pistons will need the pin bores finished, rods will need to be appropriately clearanced, assembly will need balancing, headwork, the list goes on and on.

Having somebody with a good shop and tooling to get a quality bore finish, that is true to the crank and deck is crutial for ring seal AND longevity.

Ive worked at a machiene shop for 8 years, doing everything from resto engines all the way to top fuel drag motors. I have yet to see a single project have all the parts come ready for assembly. Thats just not how the manufactures do things.

If you are looking for a place to save money, assemble it yourself after the shop has had ALL the parts there, and checked out, and gone through. Not a huge savings, but it is one. And I wouldn't even bother with that unless you are knowledgable, or have somebody that is.

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^I've never heard of any eagle rod to ever require clearance adjustments. I've never heard of the big end having to be line honed when using the supplied arp2000 rod bolts properly torqued. They come already line honed from the factory. And I've never heard of eagle rods needign the small end bore conditioned for floating pins. Nor have I heard of wiseco pin bores needing to be conditioned for their supplied floating pins.

I've swapped in many a set of eagle/wiseco combinations into oem blocks. AND swapped in used oem rods (As long as they wern't involved in a rod knock issue; which compromizes the big end machining spec). Even after having the crank cut. Never an issue. So many other's have done the same and seen 7-800whp with the eagle/wiseco stuff and have the motors last. Maybe that's why the eagle/wiseco combo is so popular?

. . . If you're interchanging rodbolts and main bolts with new/different bolts then you have to have the block and rods line honed. I whole heartedly agree with that. So instead run the original main bolts (good for, what, 1000whp?) and get a rod that has the bolts already torqued and the big end honed, if not running another used set that has the stock rod bolts where the factory already had this spec'ed out a long time ago. Still don't need clearancing or line honing anywhere. And Wiseco pistons are already balanced within a gram, too. Oem pistons are oem and as balanced as you'd expect for your oem rebuild. . .

It is not hard or expensive at all to scroung up the tools needed to check crank endplay and thrust clearances. And all the specs are readily available. Plastigauging the journals is not hard. Nor is checking the bore shape with the rings. . . Wiseco supplies the exact ring gap spec (use a decent file; not much $$$) for your specific application supplied with their rings which come with their pistons.

Yes, actually boring a cylinder and decking, etc takes professional equipment. And any shop that wouldn't bore WRT the deck plane is going to screw everything else up anyway. . . It's easy to do that right with the right equipment. Very many blocks need not be borred anyway. Getting a reputable shop to bore your block and machine your crank (properly) is pretty much all the "outsourcing" you need for a good build if you're going to use oem rods with the original bolts or at least eagle rods with their supplied arp2000 rod bolts. . . Don't know about the other rod choices out there. . . IF you've trashed your crank AND your cylinder walls.

I would let a machine shop make that determination for you. Some very thin scratches can be micropolished out. IMHO, I'd buy a new crank before I let them turn it if it comes down to that.

Well, here's some bullets from what I've learned about undercutting sirius motor (4g6*) cranks. . .

--99% of the time if you're proactive with checking your motor, the scratches can be removed with .01" undercut.
--Nitriding is at least twice this depth.
--You can hunt around for a crank (buy on the classifieds, etc.) and guess that it's not damaged before you actually get it to personally inspect it; or you can undercut and guarantee that it will have the proper machined surface. Cost is the same. OR a little less in favor of magnafluxing and undercutting. Mine cost $130 to do this past year.
--Nitriding doesn't increase the strenght of the crank. It supposedly increases the durability of the journal during poor oiling conditions. Personally I've never managed to cut off a motor in time not to damage the nitrided crank enough to require undercutting.
-- The official Laser Factory Rebuild Manual (published by chrysler, mitsubishi) states that you 'must not undercut the crank' on one page; then literally 1 page over states that 'if the crank is scored to have it properly undercut to remove the scratches'.
--Kevin Jewer runs an undercut crank in his RWD dsm racecar.
--Jean-Paul Riccio (coltboostin) made 708 whp with his colt using an undercut crank. "Still being flogged to this day".
--Finally, my undercut crank is fine, been going strong for years. Nitriding only goes up to .03" deep and only at the journal. This does not compromise crank strength WRT torque.


Broken cranks were undercut and polished before magnafluxing or no magnaflux was even done. A scratched crank has usually seen tremendous heat which could lead to microfractures. An undercut crank cracks because of the fact that the heat that was a symptom of under oiling caused the fractures, not because the crank was undercut removing the nitriding. If the crank were properly magnafluxed (polishing makes the fractures harder to see with magnafluxing), then the crank would have been thrown out before it were undercut.

 

[BogusSVO]

DSM-onster,
it seems that what you said is spot on, with proof even. Kudos!

With his rebuild he is doing, nothing close to what you have stated, he should be just fine, as long as everything is cleanded, twice, and proper assembly is done.
Understanding this is his first rebuild, and a low budget one, having the crank ground .25mm/.010 he will be fine. If the scuffs on his crank are as light as he makes them sound to be, a polish would suffice. But I would agree it is something that needs to be check at a proper machine shop with proper tooling and equipment.

As far as "good name brand" aftermarket parts go, I will agree very little is needed to get them ready for install. Most of the time its just a check of weights, and in the case of rods, checking the housing bores, sitting here thinking about it, I can not think of a set that had an issue right out of the box. But I still set up and check the bores, so I know and not assume, But there have been times I have had to narrow the rod for some extra clearance, but that was due to what the end use of the build up was for.
Also, I can not think of a set of good pistons needing the wrist pin bores honed, unless you ordered semi-finished pistons for some one off rod/piston combo.

Iroc_g Id like to get to talk to you a bit more, 8 years is a time in a shop, Most machinist that I know have found a nitch, by that amount of time, and specialize in a certin area, but have a solid knowlage overall in all aspects of machine work.
I have bein doing machine work since Sept 1992, yes I still remember my first day in a machine shop. , And have owned my own shop for 7 years, I deal mainly in head work.
So Id like to talk shop with you about equipment and machine procudres.

 

[DeNoZZo]

Heres what I'm having done at the machine shop and the prices

Degrease Block= $44
Crack Check= $33
Line bore main=$28.45
Cylinder Hone=$12.00 per cylinder
Deck Block= $65.90
Degrease Crank=$12.80
Inspect and polish Crank= $42.00
Rods Inspection= $4.50 each
Valve Job= $140
Head Surface=$34

Pistons are being checked and cleaned too, but he said that price just depends too much on how dirty they are.

Any changes I should make to that list before I drop it off?

 

[BogusSVO]

Heres what I'm having done at the machine shop and the prices

Degrease Block= $44
Crack Check= $33
Line bore main=$28.45
Cylinder Hone=$12.00 per cylinder
Deck Block= $65.90
Degrease Crank=$12.80
Inspect and polish Crank= $42.00
Rods Inspection= $4.50 each
Valve Job= $140
Head Surface=$34

Pistons are being checked and cleaned too, but he said that price just depends too much on how dirty they are.

Any changes I should make to that list before I drop it off?

Looks about right, the only one I see off is the price for line bore mains, but then if that is supposed to read "CHECK main bore for alignment" for $28.45 that would make more sense to me, I just do not know a shope that would line bore a block for $30.

Also ask about what equipment will be used for the valve jub and the surfacing of the head and block.

 

[DeNoZZo]

Looks about right, the only one I see off is the price for line bore mains, but then if that is supposed to read "CHECK main bore for alignment" for $28.45 that would make more sense to me, I just do not know a shope that would line bore a block for $30.

Also ask about what equipment will be used for the valve jub and the surfacing of the head and block.

Is there anything you think I don't need done? Like the crank degrease, or the block crack check.

 

[Boostjunki84]

I am going to try to do it myself, but we'll see.

Good to hear. Enjoy the process.

Heres what I'm having done at the machine shop and the prices

Degrease Block= $44
Crack Check= $33
Line bore main=$28.45
Cylinder Hone=$12.00 per cylinder
Deck Block= $65.90
Degrease Crank=$12.80
Inspect and polish Crank= $42.00
Rods Inspection= $4.50 each
Valve Job= $140
Head Surface=$34

Pistons are being checked and cleaned too, but he said that price just depends too much on how dirty they are.

Any changes I should make to that list before I drop it off?

Why are they decking the block and not the head? Usually, you would need to deck the head before decking the block. I'm just wondering. Have they already looked at your parts?

Do most machine shops charge to inspect parts?

 

[DeNoZZo]

Good to hear. Enjoy the process.



Why are they decking the block and not the head? Usually, you would need to deck the head before decking the block. I'm just wondering. Have they already looked at your parts?

Do most machine shops charge to inspect parts?

They havn't looked at anything yet.... I'm taking the stuff there tomorrow. And I'll see If I can only get the head decked then.

Man I don't know where I'd be without this site.

 

[BogusSVO]

BoostJunkie.... the last line in the pricing... Head surface $34

Yes most all shops charge for cleaning/checking, pricing is normally baised off of "shop time" used
Then the EPA fee for getting rid of the "toxic sludge" from cleaning parts.

the crack check, they are going to magnaflux the block? that may not be needed, you have not said anything about cooling issues, or water in the oil.
Or is that a pressure test for the head for cracks?

All in all the machine shop list looks good. for a general rebuild.

But do not forget to clean that pile of parts you still have at the house!!!
oil pan, intakes, nuts, bolts, brackets, valve cover and on and on.... a couple gallons of diesel in a 5 gallon bucket will go along way. Also some easy off oven cleaner, and some purple power, an old tooth brush, and a parts cleaning brush.(if you have acess to a glass beader, that will be your best friend)

HINT: do not let the oven cleaner/purple power soak too long or dry on alum parts, It will leave a powdery coating thats is just plain ugly and hard to get rid off.

 

[Boostjunki84]

BoostJunkie.... the last line in the pricing... Head surface $34

Yes most all shops charge for cleaning/checking, pricing is normally baised off of "shop time" used
Then the EPA fee for getting rid of the "toxic sludge" from cleaning parts.

the crack check, they are going to magnaflux the block? that may not be needed, you have not said anything about cooling issues, or water in the oil.
Or is that a pressure test for the head for cracks?

All in all the machine shop list looks good. for a general rebuild.

But do not forget to clean that pile of parts you still have at the house!!!
oil pan, intakes, nuts, bolts, brackets, valve cover and on and on.... a couple gallons of diesel in a 5 gallon bucket will go along way. Also some easy off oven cleaner, and some purple power, an old tooth brush, and a parts cleaning brush.(if you have acess to a glass beader, that will be your best friend)

HINT: do not let the oven cleaner/purple power soak too long or dry on alum parts, It will leave a powdery coating thats is just plain ugly and hard to get rid off.

+1 for Purple Power.

Wow. The guys at my local machine shop don't charge for inspecting parts. I just thought it was normal.

I personally don't see why the OP would need to deck the block or the head if everything is in spec. I would suspect the head to be out of spec before the block anyway.

 

[Splitpi]

Heres what I'm having done at the machine shop and the prices

Degrease Block= $44
Crack Check= $33
Line bore main=$28.45
Cylinder Hone=$12.00 per cylinder
Deck Block= $65.90
Degrease Crank=$12.80
Inspect and polish Crank= $42.00
Rods Inspection= $4.50 each
Valve Job= $140
Head Surface=$34

Pistons are being checked and cleaned too, but he said that price just depends too much on how dirty they are.

Any changes I should make to that list before I drop it off?

Where are you having the work done if you don't mind me asking? I know Harvey's down in Norwalk over by Des Moines has a good reputation on 4g63's.

 

[BogusSVO]

+1 for Purple Power.

Wow. The guys at my local machine shop don't charge for inspecting parts. I just thought it was normal.

I personally don't see why the OP would need to deck the block or the head if everything is in spec. I would suspect the head to be out of spec before the block anyway.

If you bring enough work to a shop, they will do a quick check for free,
But if the rod check is checking the big end, then there is set up time and such, its not all that quick to do..... But if its mic'ing a bore of a block, thats a bit quicker and not near as much set up time.

The engines are old, so there are very few with the factory head gasket still on them.
I have decked a few of the 4g63 blocks, what cuses most damage is improper cleaning od the block deck,
I do not like rol-loc pads, I have seen them wave a block, decking a block.002 did not clean it up enough, the edge of the block was rolled at both the oil fed port and the oil return. cutting a total of .005 got the job done.
But on a 4G63 block there is not much piston to deck clearance to start.
About .003 is the most I have measured, about 6 blocks, (6bolts)

 

[DeNoZZo]

Where are you having the work done if you don't mind me asking? I know Harvey's down in Norwalk over by Des Moines has a good reputation on 4g63's.

Dewar machine

 

[DeNoZZo]

If you bring enough work to a shop, they will do a quick check for free,
But if the rod check is checking the big end, then there is set up time and such, its not all that quick to do..... But if its mic'ing a bore of a block, thats a bit quicker and not near as much set up time.

The engines are old, so there are very few with the factory head gasket still on them.
I have decked a few of the 4g63 blocks, what cuses most damage is improper cleaning od the block deck,
I do not like rol-loc pads, I have seen them wave a block, decking a block.002 did not clean it up enough, the edge of the block was rolled at both the oil fed port and the oil return. cutting a total of .005 got the job done.
But on a 4G63 block there is not much piston to deck clearance to start.
About .003 is the most I have measured, about 6 blocks, (6bolts)

How do I clean the top surface of the block then? It still has some gunk on it from the head gasket... Skotchbrite pads? Or no?

 

[BogusSVO]

the method I use, and recomend is a hard back long body boad, used for paint and body work. with 80-100 grit sand paper.

But since you are having the block cleaned and decked at a machine shop. you do not have to worry about that.

 

[Boostjunki84]

the method I use, and recomend is a hard back long body boad, used for paint and body work. with 80-100 grit sand paper.

But since you are having the block cleaned and decked at a machine shop. you do not have to worry about that.

+1 on the sand paper.

I still don't see why the OP would need to deck the block if it is within spec? I pulled my engine in my Laser for a rebuild at 200k. The block was within spec so I did not have it decked.

 

[DSM_PWR]

the method I use, and recomend is a hard back long body boad, used for paint and body work. with 80-100 grit sand paper.

But since you are having the block cleaned and decked at a machine shop. you do not have to worry about that.

If it still has bits of headgasket residue, can you just use a razor blade and scrap it off without problem?, obviously while not trying to cause scratches or anything to the surface..

 

[DeNoZZo]

ok guys, went to the machine shop today and....

It turned out to be some guys garage with a bunch of machining equipment. I told him to just clean the block and check/polish the crank. His machines did look fairly old, but not necessarily from the 60's. Maybe 70's or 80's. I didn't want him to do the surfacing quite yet since all I saw were older machines, and the way you guys are making it sound, it should be done on a newer machine. But I might; this other guy I know that had built his dsm up swears this guy is great. And the machinist said he has worked on these motors before. So I'm still up in the air on this...

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

It sounds like the guy has been around the block a few times. (Pun Intended) He knows his equipment and will do a good job. There's nothing fancy about our engines that a standard machine shop can't handle. Good luck man!! That's a judgment call on your part that we can't help you make.

 

[Boostjunki84]

It sounds like the guy has been around the block a few times. (Pun Intended) He knows his equipment and will do a good job. There's nothing fancy about our engines that a standard machine shop can't handle. Good luck man!!

+1. I thought the same thing the first time I walked into my machinists' shop. However I have never had anything but top notch work and he has always been a stand up guy.

To the OP, Did you have him check the surface of the head and block?

 

[DeNoZZo]

+1. I thought the same thing the first time I walked into my machinists' shop. However I have never had anything but top notch work and he has always been a stand up guy.

To the OP, Did you have him check the surface of the head and block?

Not yet... I just told him to clean the head/block, inspect/polish the crank, and inspect/clean pistons and rods.

I think I'm gonna have him deck the head as little as possible, align hone the mains (or whatever needs to be done for the arp main studs, I forget), and hone the cylinders.

 

[Boostjunki84]

Not yet... I just told him to clean the head/block, inspect/polish the crank, and inspect/clean pistons and rods.

I think I'm gonna have him deck the head as little as possible, align hone the mains (or whatever needs to be done for the arp main studs, I forget), and hone the cylinders.

That looks like a good plan. Make sure to go ahead and get that vavle job also.