Letting Shop Build Motor VS Building it at Home

[BogusSVO]

that sould be able to get you a decent "basic" rebuild,

a decent overhaul kit, rod and main bearings, stock rings, stock time belt kit and gaskets water pump
then add head studs (appox $125) and maybe some BC springs ($100)
some gasket kits come with a mls head gasket (I personaly perfer them) (mls about $100)

now pricing of the machine work can vary from shop to shop, so be carfull there
you can clean your block at home and save a few $$$, get a can of easy off oven cleaner, yellow can, an old tooth brush or small detail brush. the cleaner the better (DIY Block clean $20.00)
then your block can go to the shop
torque plate hone (appox $100) and deck the block, as little as possiable
have the head treated to a 3 angle valve job(appox $125) and surfaced($40.00) with the BC spring and stock retainers
and by the time you get the "odds-n-ends" oil ,flilter ,anti freeze,rtv,and what ever else you need your budget will be about spent I bet

IF the money is there, get the main studs ($140 )and have the block aligned honed ($120)

The prices I quoted are basied off of MY best guess or shop prices from my shop or other local shops to me.
get you a new notebook and make the lists, call and get your prices and keep lots of notes.

Time for you to make some calls, and check ebay for a rebuild kit and such, also ask the supporting venders here at DSM tuners if they can put you a custom rebuild kit together, most shops/stores witll give a little discount with the more you buy from them.
SO if you can get your rebuild kit AND studs AND MLS Gasket all from the same vendor you may save a few dollars and you will save money on shipping

 

[DSM_PWR]

Not knowing how far I can go on the stock tranny.... I would like to be in the high 12's to low 13's. 300ish hp?

You can easily do that on stock internals, just get the block Cleaned, Decked, Honed...

About $200 at most in machine work and might as well replace the Piston Rings $150

 

[BogusSVO]

Honestly, I would let the shop do the rotating assembly, make sure the vavletrain is done properly, and let them do clearances.




For us especially it will guarantee a properly built block that we can do all the bolt on type things. It will save us headaches, and more than likely will prevent us from breaking anything and setting us further behind.

with a $1500 build buget that would not be likely, most shops charge about $350 - $600 and up to build a long block, if it was his first engine build (it is I know) but there was more to the engine build up (a more high doller build up) I would agree to have a shop that specializes in the 4G63 build it.

but with a running engine, that for the most part is just getting "freshing up", with time and some proper help and guidance he should be able to get through this.

this will be a "loose" engine build, so most clearances will be on the loose side,
no block bore, no crank grind bing spoke off. No Hbeam or aftermarket rods, so no worries about rod to crank interferance.

It was running before....It shall run again.

 

[Primo101]

It was running before....It shall run again.

We're hoping it will be

 

[BogusSVO]

hey, I will say move the BC springs from a "want" part to a "must have part"

I just tested appox 7 sets of valve springs, and only 1 and a half sets past spec.

weak valve springs will cause your car to have a lazy rev, and you will get valve float sooner in your RPM band

 

[DeNoZZo]

ok while I got you guys here, I decided to try an wiggle the crank after I got all the stuff off and...
<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i73.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid73.photobucket.com/albums/i216/cal64us/IMGP2471.flv">

I have no idea if thats too much or allowable. I don't know if you guys can tell either without mic-ing it, but it sure scares the hell out of me. Keep in mind that the car has 147k and has had no crank walk related problems to speak of. Someone please tell me this is normal.

 

[BogusSVO]

some back and forth movement is needed, for how much or how little, check the repair manual, or search here.

from what I saw in your vid clip, it did not look like all that much.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

That seems like a lot of play. But, you'll have to put a dial indicator on the end of the crank in order to get a good reading.

 

[DeNoZZo]

That seems like a lot of play. But, you'll have to put a dial indicator on the end of the crank in order to get a good reading.

How do you measure it?

 

[Zex4g63]

hey, I will say move the BC springs from a "want" part to a "must have part"

I just tested appox 7 sets of valve springs, and only 1 and a half sets past spec.

weak valve springs will cause your car to have a lazy rev, and you will get valve float sooner in your RPM band

Funny, BC valve springs test much the same way......

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Just like I said. Put a dial indicator on the end of the crank and zero it out. Then pry the crank back and forth while reading the indicator to show how much it moves.

Here you go! This is on an honda engine but you get the idea!

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[DeNoZZo]

ok, I don't have access to a dial caliper today.... All the shops around are closed for the weekend. But I might as well take the front and rear case's off. My next question is, how the hell do I get the crank sprocket off? I tried putting a screwdriver with a rag wrapped around it in between the crank arms to stop it from moving then turning both the breaker bar and wrench but the screwdriver just wasn't holding. I could see it flexing.
Heres a pic, any suggestions

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[dsmfa9nutter]

I would HIGHLY recommend having a professional shop build the shortblock as they have the proper tools and knowledge to install parts correctly and make sure there are no issues. Once the short block is done, it's tons of fun putting the rest together in the garage.

^This.^

Both your pride and your wallet will take a hit if you screw up your shortblock. Let a (known) shop take care of your shortblock and then put the rest together yourself.

 

[lacroixdp]

ok, I don't have access to a dial caliper today.... All the shops around are closed for the weekend. But I might as well take the front and rear case's off. My next question is, how the hell do I get the crank sprocket off? I tried putting a screwdriver with a rag wrapped around it in between the crank arms to stop it from moving then turning both the breaker bar and wrench but the screwdriver just wasn't holding. I could see it flexing.
Heres a pic, any suggestions

Screw in two of your flywheel bolts and insert a long rod around both of them and your engine stand. I use a 18" 3/8" extension I have sitting around. Works like a champ.

 

[delta448]

You can do this a few different ways.

If the head is on, you can feed a rope into the spark plug hole and use it to stop the piston from passing TDC while you turn the breaker on the sprocket.

If the head is off, and to do it safely, you need to fab (or buy) a specialty tool. I've used an old serpentine belt tool I no longer needed to make the specialty tool. You can grind a curve into the side of a metal bar and use the crank pulley/damper to mark the bolt holes around the curve you grind, and then drill out the marks for 2 adjacent bolt holes.

Or, you can get impatient with the grinding like I did and just drill three holes in two metal bars. Attach the bars with a bolt, then thread two of the pulley bolts into the 2 other holes.

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In these pics, you can see where I started to grind the curve and gave up, deciding to just use two bars to get the job done. The holes that I actually used on the sprocket are circled, I borrowed these pics from an old post of mine.

Here's a nice little writeup on making the specialty tool, I think it describes things a little better than I have. I referenced it when I made the tool in the pics above.

 

[DeNoZZo]

^This.^

Both your pride and your wallet will take a hit if you screw up your shortblock. Let a (known) shop take care of your shortblock and then put the rest together yourself.

I am going to try to do it myself, but we'll see.

 

[DeNoZZo]

Screw in two of your flywheel bolts and insert a long rod around both of them and your engine stand. I use a 18" 3/8" extension I have sitting around. Works like a champ.

What about getting an impact gun on it? My grandpa who lives near by has a huge air compressor, and I wouldn't mind going out and buying a $50 impact gun.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Yep... that's what I used. A good impact gun will get that off in a jiffy.

 

[MichaelSuch]

I put 2 fly wheel bolts back in and jammed a pry bar between the 2 bolts and the engine stand then used an impact gun on it. It came right off, I tried using a breaker bar instead of the impact but it was putting a lot of stress on the cheap engine stand and it still wouldn't budge.

 

[delta448]

An impact wrench is really great for taking the sprocket off. But I'd rather not trust it's torque setting when assembly time comes, that's where I prefer my specially fabbed tool and my torque wrench.

I'm not going to say that using the flywheel bolts are wrong or anything, but personally I prefer to not use the crankshaft like a big socket extension. Twisting one end of a crank and holding fast the other is just asking for stress fractures to start on one of the rod journals.

 

[DeNoZZo]

I can check the crank endplay with feeler gauges too right? Thats all i have right now... Do I just wedge it in one of between the rod and crank.

 

[delta448]

I wouldn't trust feeler gauges there unless you can be sure to measure twice in exactly the same position against a crank counterweight and a main cap and not touching any of the journals or bearing edges. Definitely not the ideal most scientific method IMO. A dial indicator gauge will give a more consistent repeatable measurement. Human error can distort the results too easily with feeler gauges.

A dial indicator is a useful tool to have when assembling an engine and really isn't too expensive to buy, here's one for $10 and you can get the magnetic base for another $10. It's the best way to measure endplay, to degree a cam and to determine piston to deck clearance, among other things.

 

[BogusSVO]

I can check the crank endplay with feeler gauges too right? Thats all i have right now... Do I just wedge it in one of between the rod and crank.

your close, when you check between the rod and crank you are checking rod clearance, not end play, but that needs to be checked too, the "hotter" the engine the more rod clearance you need for thermal expantion of the parts.

you can check "thrust bearing" clearance with feeler gauges, you check that by wedging the carnt toward one end of the block, the front first, and use the feeler gauge between the thurst bearing and the thrust face of the crank, then wedge the crank the other way and check the clearance between the other crank thurst and the thrust bearing.
This method is not the best way to check end play on a worn thurst surface and worn bearing, beacuse of the way the thurst bearing can wear into the thurst face of the crank.
but it should get you close.

Using a dial indicator will give a much more reliable reading.
So Delta448 is right on the money with that!

 

[DeNoZZo]

ok, stupid question then... Which one is the thrust bearing? I stuck a .009 guage in the gap between the crank and bearing and it barely fit, and when I got it in there, I could not move the crank at all. Am I measuring in the right place?

And I ordered that dial indicator too, thanks!

 

[BogusSVO]

I want to say you will see the thurst washer edge on #3 main, the center one.


I have been through many of the heads, just not many of the bottom ends. So If I am wrong, some one please correct me.