Letting Shop Build Motor VS Building it at Home

[DeNoZZo]

I nearly have my engine block completely disassembled but now I need to decide whether to have a shop put the thing back together with new parts or assemble it myself. It's just the internal stuff like the torqing, bearing tolerances, and piston ring gapping that I don't know if I'm up to snuff on. Everything else I should be able to handle. What do you guys suggest for a noob? And for those of you who have done stuff like this yourself, do you have any tips?

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

I would HIGHLY recommend having a professional shop build the shortblock as they have the proper tools and knowledge to install parts correctly and make sure there are no issues. Once the short block is done, it's tons of fun putting the rest together in the garage.

 

[BogusSVO]

well it depends on the shop, and how familar they are with the engine you want built. What skill level you have?

some of the basics you would need is an engine stand or build table, A GOOD tourqe wrench, some plastagauge, a ring file, feeler gauges, and a ring compresser.
If you have a bud that has built a few, and is willing to "hold your hand" through the build you might want to do it yourself.

 

[DeNoZZo]

Say I would have a shop do it, do I give them all my new parts I would have put in, or do I just tell them what I want and they do it?

What would you suggest I have done to the block itself? I was thinking just cleaned, surfaces decked, and cylinder walls honed.

 

[DSM_PWR]

Its really not as hard as people make it out to be...

As long as you have the right tools and you know the Machine Work was done correclty... its not hard..

 

[DSM_PWR]

Say I would have a shop do it, do I give them all my new parts I would have put in, or do I just tell them what I want and they do it?

What would you suggest I have done to the block itself? I was thinking just cleaned, surfaces decked, and cylinder walls honed.

Depends on what your doing...

For instance, i had my block:

*Hot Tanked (to clean out all passages)
*Decked (for good seal)
*Bored .020 over (for the Wiseco Pistons)
*Line bored (for the ARP Mains/Kiggly Girdle)
*Rotary Fully Balanced (for a perfectly balanced bottom end)

 

[wezzy785]

Ya if you don't know what you are doing and you don't have a friend to help you with it. I would agree with TuRBoTaLooN find a good shop build the shortblock. Now just have fun doing the rest

 

[DeNoZZo]

well I got a friend who's dad knows a lot about cars and engines in general. I'm sure he could help me if I ever got stuck. The thing is, what would save me more money.... Buying the tools to do it in my garage, or paying a shop for labor?

 

[DeNoZZo]

Depends on what your doing...

For instance, i had my block:

*Hot Tanked (to clean out all passages)
*Decked (for good seal)
*Bored .020 over (for the Wiseco Pistons)
*Line bored (for the ARP Mains/Kiggly Girdle)
*Rotary Fully Balanced (for a perfectly balanced bottom end)

Just out of curiosity, how much did that all cost?

 

[GPTourer]

Man, if I had the tools, the time and the know how - I would do it all myself.

I agree, that assembling it is no big deal if you've got the right tools and someone with you to "hold your hand" through the process the first time. Most DSM shops do the same thing (minus the hand holding part) they just send the parts out to somebody else for the heavy duty machine work and then asemble it and ship it back to you. JAM is the only one to my knowledge that does their own machine work in house.

I would think, if you shop around, you could get all those tools for fairly cheap - at least a lot less then the labor of sending it all out for assembly by someone else.

 

[DSM_PWR]

well I got a friend who's dad knows a lot about cars and engines in general. I'm sure he could help me if I ever got stuck. The thing is, what would save me more money.... Buying the tools to do it in my garage, or paying a shop for labor?

The basic tools needed are...

*Piston Ring Compressor (to compress the pison w/rings into the block)
*Piston Ring Filer (to file the piston rings)
*Feeler Gauges (to check the piston ring gap)
*Torque Wrench (to torque down the Main/Rod bolts/nuts)
*Obviously basic set of socket tools
*Assembly Lube (always use lube! )

If you wanna get more indept like checking clearances:
*Plastigage
*Gauge indicator for checking Crank Endplay

 

[DSM_PWR]

This is what my Machine Shop charges me

*Hot Tanked $55
*Decked $62
*Bored .020 over with Torque Plate $110
*Line bored $130
*Rotary Fully Balanced $130

 

[BogusSVO]

Say I would have a shop do it, do I give them all my new parts I would have put in, or do I just tell them what I want and they do it?

What would you suggest I have done to the block itself? I was thinking just cleaned, surfaces decked, and cylinder walls honed.

may I ask what your parts list includes?
composite head gasket? or mls?
head studs? main studs? arp rod bolts in stock rods?
what rings? what are they made from?

if the block has minamal wear, a hone job will be fine, also ask if they will use a tourqe plate when they hone your block.
as long as the proper finish is done for the type of rings you intend to use.the grit finish for the rings is important for sealing, so find out if your rings are steel or chrome-moly or chrome.
If using main studs have the main housing bore checked and honed as needed.
Have your used stock pistons mic'ed to make sure they are still in good usable shape and not collapsed. also check the ring lands in the pistons to make sure they have no abnormal wear.
If you are decking the block for any reason, make sure you check the piston to block deck clearance. if the shop mills too much off the block the piston crown will be above the block deck. also inqure about what machine they would deck your block on. this will make a big diffrence on the surface finish that is left. diffrent surface finishes are needed for a composite gasket compared to a MLS style gasket. the same applies to the head surface finish.

check the crank for wear/scoring, all the journals should be smooth as glass.

If you go with after market rod bolts the rods will have to be resized.

When it comes to parts, talk to the shop and see if they will offer a warrenty if they provide the parts and do a long block assembly, if not and something fails it is all back on you. Ask them how many of these engines they have built in the past.
Ask if they can give you a walk thu there shop, Look at the equipment that they use. some shops still use equipment made in the 1960's... thats fine for most domestic cast engines, Ford, Chevy and so forth, but will do a sub-standard job on your lightweight import.

 

[bluegs03]

I built my own engine and as others have said it really isnt that hard. Now that being said just in case i made sure i had my engine repair and restoration class done before hand (automotive tech class that teaches you how to build engines) so that made it alot easier. If you are at all unsure about it just have a shop do it.

 

[TFFC]

Just have me build it!!!!!

 

[Boostjunki84]

Its really not as hard as people make it out to be...

As long as you have the right tools and you know the Machine Work was done correclty... its not hard..

+1. Save your money, roll up your sleeves, and put it together. The reward of having built it yourself is worth the extra effort.

 

[BogusSVO]

do some reaserch first, ask your frineds and reltives what machine shop they use, and how they liked the sevice and price they paid. Find other DSM'ers in your area and ask them to.
Right now info is your best friend and the more you know the better off you will be.
I would say grab a few dollars and go to you local book store and get the basic repair manual on your car (chiltion or haynes) and then look to see if the have a "how to hot rod your DSM" there are ones for Ford, chevy, Honda. They cost about $20.00
Make the serch button on this site your best friend, This is one the largest car sites I have seen.

as far as the basic assembly goes, it all about the same basics for any engine, so your friend's dad will be a help, but as all engines go, all have there own subtle diffrences. I am sure the guys here will be helpful with the tips and tricks on the engine you plan on building.
your heading down a well worn path that many have gone down before you.
what I would recomend for you to do is , (1) make a budget, just how much do you have to spend?
(2) make a parts list with prices, and break it in to sections, (a) Must have parts (gaskets, rings ect)(b) these would be nice to have (greddy blue time belt, adj cam gears) and (c) wish list parts (do you really need the 24k gold valve cover bolts)

so keep up with your reaserch, make a good plan, relax and do not rush the build.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Man, if I had the tools, the time and the know how - I would do it all myself.

I agree, that assembling it is no big deal if you've got the right tools and someone with you to "hold your hand" through the process the first time. Most DSM shops do the same thing (minus the hand holding part) they just send the parts out to somebody else for the heavy duty machine work and then asemble it and ship it back to you. JAM is the only one to my knowledge that does their own machine work in house.

I would think, if you shop around, you could get all those tools for fairly cheap - at least a lot less then the labor of sending it all out for assembly by someone else.

I believe SBR does all of their own machining too! http://www.slowboyracing.com/skin1/pages/US/machineshop/index.htm

Who does Magnus' Machine work?

 

[DeNoZZo]

may I ask what your parts list includes?
composite head gasket? or mls?
head studs? main studs? arp rod bolts in stock rods?
what rings? what are they made from?

if the block has minamal wear, a hone job will be fine, also ask if they will use a tourqe plate when they hone your block.
as long as the proper finish is done for the type of rings you intend to use.the grit finish for the rings is important for sealing, so find out if your rings are steel or chrome-moly or chrome.
If using main studs have the main housing bore checked and honed as needed.
Have your used stock pistons mic'ed to make sure they are still in good usable shape and not collapsed. also check the ring lands in the pistons to make sure they have no abnormal wear.
If you are decking the block for any reason, make sure you check the piston to block deck clearance. if the shop mills too much off the block the piston crown will be above the block deck. also inqure about what machine they would deck your block on. this will make a big diffrence on the surface finish that is left. diffrent surface finishes are needed for a composite gasket compared to a MLS style gasket. the same applies to the head surface finish.

check the crank for wear/scoring, all the journals should be smooth as glass.

If you go with after market rod bolts the rods will have to be resized.

When it comes to parts, talk to the shop and see if they will offer a warrenty if they provide the parts and do a long block assembly, if not and something fails it is all back on you. Ask them how many of these engines they have built in the past.
Ask if they can give you a walk thu there shop, Look at the equipment that they use. some shops still use equipment made in the 1960's... thats fine for most domestic cast engines, Ford, Chevy and so forth, but will do a sub-standard job on your lightweight import.

Wow, thanks for all that info! As for the questions at the top though, thats still all undecided. What would you suggest?

 

[BogusSVO]

well what is your target? 300 HP? 600hp?
big diffrence in the build cost. But almost any rebuild even more than stock I would recomend having ARP head studs and main studs, and if going with the stock rods new arp bolts and rezie the rods (But at this point I do not think you would be far off in the cost of a set of H-Beam rods.)
I like MLS head gaskets too.
also the more HP you intend to make, you have to think of the "supporting cast".. such as what turbo? what turbo manifold or header. fuel injectors, AFPR, and all the other componets that that will be needed to have a good solid reliable build.

what budget are you looking to have? $500.00? or $5000.00? thats your limit to your build.

 

[DeNoZZo]

well what is your target? 300 HP? 600hp?
big diffrence in the build cost. But almost any rebuild even more than stock I would recomend having ARP head studs and main studs, and if going with the stock rods new arp bolts and rezie the rods (But at this point I do not think you would be far off in the cost of a set of H-Beam rods.)
I like MLS head gaskets too.
also the more HP you intend to make, you have to think of the "supporting cast".. such as what turbo? what turbo manifold or header. fuel injectors, AFPR, and all the other componets that that will be needed to have a good solid reliable build.

what budget are you looking to have? $500.00? or $5000.00? thats your limit to your build.

How would you suggest I spend $1500 then?

 

[DSM_PWR]

How would you suggest I spend $1500 then?

You still have yet to answer a simple question ...

What are your goals? Hp? Timeslip? What???

 

[Primo101]

Honestly, I would let the shop do the rotating assembly, make sure the vavletrain is done properly, and let them do clearances.




For us especially it will guarantee a properly built block that we can do all the bolt on type things. It will save us headaches, and more than likely will prevent us from breaking anything and setting us further behind.

 

[DeNoZZo]

You still have yet to answer a simple question ...

What are your goals? Hp? Timeslip? What???

Not knowing how far I can go on the stock tranny.... I would like to be in the high 12's to low 13's. 300ish hp?

 

[Primo101]

You still have yet to answer a simple question ...

What are your goals? Hp? Timeslip? What???

I think he's going for a reliable, yet powerful engine