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AEM Kiggly 12 Tooth trigger Car won't start

Posted by Lambiablo, Apr 15, 2016

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  1. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    Hello,

    I have been struggling to get my car started following the install of the revised Kiggly 12 tooth trigger disc, the car started and ran fine before.

    I'm running a stock coil.

    The car is a 6 bolt swapped 2G (98) running an AEM series 1. I was running a green top 1G CAS that was plugged into the 2G crank position plug via a plug and play harness (can't remember the company) also with the white wire spliced into the signal wire on the 2G cam position plug. (Again the car ran fine with this setup)

    With the kiggly setup, I'm using his revised kit (has a support ring welded into the disc) and I've gone back to a 2G style cam angle sensor, same that comes with the trigger disc kit. This way I'll be running two of the same sensor for cam and crank. I cut the large cam pickup tooth off according to Kigglys instructions, as well as the setting changes in the ECU.

    For anyone familiar with AEM (I'm sure other ECUs have a parameter like this too) there is a paramter called "Stat Sync'd" that is supposed to swith to "ON" within a few seconds of turning over the engine, it never goes "ON". Without this turning ON the car will not fire. I have confirmed I'm getting power (~12V with the ignition on) to the cam sensor of which this part of the harness hasn't been used for a while since I've been running the 1G CAS.

    Any thoughts will be appreciated, I'm hoping someone can chime in that has seen or experienced this with 12 tooth trigger disc setups. I'm not sure how to see what the ECU is waiting for in terms of turnin ON "stat sync'd". I may eventually have to post this question to an AEM forum but figured I would begin here.

    Thanks.
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  2. kiggly

    kiggly Supporting Vendor

    308
    117
    Joined Feb 17, 2003
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Hi Kyle, I think I still owed you a call back on this. Please verify both the sensors are providing a signal. The mitsu cam angle sensor that you now have at both the cam and crank locations are hall effect, pull to ground type sensors. When there is or isn't a magnetic material in front of the sensor, it switches from "open circuit" to a "pull-to-ground" behavior. It does not need speed to work, so this makes it easy to test. The ECU needs to be providing what is called pull-up voltage to the sensor. This is just a resistor up to 5V so the signal wire should show 5V when it isn't hooked to the sensor. This is also 5V when the sensor output is the 'open circuit' behavior. When the sensor is hooked up and powered, you should be able to slowly rotate the engine and see the output switch abruptly from just above 0V to 5V (and repeat) as the metal is passing in front of it.

    If this works as intended and you're still seeing the ECU not go to stat sync'd when cranking with all the provided settings, I'm not sure what to check next. You may be able to check all this without a voltmeter as well, I believe in the advanced triggers page with the trigger tooth control table that it will cycle from white to yellow on the graph following which tooth the ECU has read while cranking. If you're not seeing that and have a functioning sensor as confirmed above, it is worth a call to AEM. If I recall correctly, your car had some unexpected settings when it was running with the OEM sensor, right? I'm not particularly an AEM expert and the stuff you had going on there didn't make a ton of sense to me.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     

    Drag Race Build 5K  7

    1991 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    7.687 @ 182 · 1G DSM
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  3. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    Hey Kevin, thanks for the reply. Yesterday evening I converted back to my previous setup (only about 10 minutes to swap the CAS and a couple plugs), it started and ran fine again. Before switching back I took a short video of a menu of crank/cam parameters, I did this again after switching to the old setup. In comparing the two, it seems as though (only my theory) the ecu is communicating with the crank and not the cam. The following parameters didn't register a value while cranking on the trigger disc setup "cam tooth", "cam-crank", "sync tooth", and "T2PER". These were all giving readings on the old setup. Parameters that gave readings on both were "crank tooth period", "fuel tooth" and "A Tooth". On the trigger disc setup I was getting lots of "sync errors".

    My next plan was to power the sensor with a power supply and monitor the signal wire with/without the presence of the metal cam disc, to confirm I didn't get a bad sensor. Since I have these videos I may even try to get them to someone at AEM before switching back to the 12 tooth setup so I can drive the car in the meantime. I can also load the videos here when I have more than a tablet at my disposal if it will be helpful. I will also confirm I'm seeing 5V on the signal wire when unplugged, although the same wire works on my green top cas fine.

    The only settings I recall us discussing were the "mag xxx" setttings. Can't remember off the top of my head, but they were rpm settings that you have set to 0 in the instructions, mine had 500, 400, 500, 400. Or something close to that.

    Thanks,
    Kyle L.
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  4. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    Hey Kevin, I figured I would post a small update here so this is all documented.

    I did test and confirm that I'm getting 5V on the CAS signal wire when the sensor is unplugged. I expected this to be the case because the car runs fine with this same signal wire on the 1G CAS setup. I also monitored the signal wire while connected to the sensor. Using a multimeter I was seeing approximately 2.5V without a trigger tooth present and something like -0.5V with the tooth in front of the sensor. This was with the sensor plugged up but not bolted in place on the cylinder head, so the value when metal is present may be slightly off if the metal disc were rigidly connected to the cam. This sounds a little different than the behavior you were describing, or does it seem to be functioning as intended according to these values?

    It may be a week or more now before I'm in a position to try anything else due losing a few bolts, (I'm now learning the ways of safety wire...).

    Thanks,
    Kyle L.
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  5. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
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    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    I'm in the same boat with the new sensor. Car just cranks gets fuel no spark at all idk what the issue could be sorry for thread jacking I'm stuck in the mud
     
  6. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    No worries! I welcome any input on similar issues, so I know I'm not the only one at least!

    What setup are you trying to run?
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  7. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
    20
    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    2g with a 6bolt swap aem v2. Car is only getting fuel while cranking. I can't get the kiggly piece synced I'm guessing.
     
  8. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    I see. I would turn off your injectors (if you haven't already) until you know your ECU is going to sync properly. What CAS are you running? One thought I've had all this time is that something may be different from trying to run the 2G hall effect (what I'm trying to run) versus the 1G optical CAS with a trigger disc setup like this.
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  9. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    I ran into issues with mine (2G with 6-bolt, 90 CAS, Kiggly 12-tooth V1 on AEM EMS V1); for me it ended up being a phasing issue and a injector vs. cam trigger setup. Let me see if I can upload my AEM tune.
     

    Attached Files:

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  10. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
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    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    I'm going to try again later today or tomorrow once I find the time. Sounds like I'm in the position you were once in twicks Hopefully this helps me I've been dying to have my car running smh everything is brand spanking new.

    What I also need is what or how to set my injectors to (2150s fic e85). I'm starting this car up for the 1st time I'm sure there's more steps I should be taking as far as the aem. Any idea?
     
  11. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Personally I prefer to start the car on gasoline, then after its sorted I change to E85 and then increase the global fuel map percentage to compensate for E85 and then fine-tune the warmup enrichment and fuel maps.

    Your FIC injectors should have come with an information sheet to use for battery voltage offsets.

    For the injectors I am using:

    • RCI 2150cc Injectors - BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
    • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
    • 6 V 2.55 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
    • 8 V 1.45 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
    • 10 V 0.95 / 1.28 / 1.43 / 1.53
    • 12 V 0.68 / .85 / 1.03 / 1.11
    • 14 V .47 / .58 / .75 / .83
    • 16 V .36 / .45 / .60 / .69
    • Static Flow Rate: 2180cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
    Here are some for Deatchworks 2200's
    • BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
    • Bosch 2200cc 0280158821
    • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
    • 8 V 1.57 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
    • 10 V 1.10 / 1.28 / 1.43 / 1.53
    • 12 V .72 / .85 / 1.03 / 1.11
    • 14 V .44 / .58 / .75 / .83
    • 16 V .25 / .45 / .60 / .69
    • Static Flow Rate: 2180cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
    • Static Flow Rate: 2770cc @ 58psi / 4bar
    Here are some for Injector Dynamics 2200's
    • BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
    • ID2000's - 2000.60.11.D.4
    • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
    • 8 V 1.46 / 1.65 / 1.83 / 1.97
    • 10 V 0.95 / 1.09 / 1.18 / 1.27
    • 12 V .68 / .76 / 0.84 / 0.93
    • 14 V .49 / .57 / .64 / .69
    • 16 V .38 / .45 / .50 / .53
    • Static Flow Rate: 2225cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 10, 2016

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  12. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    Awesome. Thanks for the info and screenshots twicks. I will try to compare with my settings this afternoon. Do you think phasing issues could prevent the car from synchronizing for startup? Or would it only prevent it from firing and running? In my case I've noticed that "Stat Sync'd" does not turn ON, at least during the times I've monitored it while cranking.
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  13. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    yes, for sure. I had it originally at Kevin's template information and it would fire up on 2 or 3 cylinders. I changed the crank/cam tooth vs. injector tooth parameters to the ones I have here and it fired up, then I used a timing light to sync the crank pulley to the timing marks and adjusted the phasing until it felt decent enough to fire up safe. I'll fine tune it on the dyno.
     

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  14. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    You could still have crank signal issue if you are not stat-synch'ing.
     

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  15. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
    20
    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    I'm Thinking that I should just start over from scratch. I don't have the paper the fic's came with either. Car has C.o.p but I know 1 cool is bad so I'm just going to put back the stock ignition stuff. I'll do this with 93 in the fuel cell and hope for the best. I wish I had someone in NYC to walk me through from beginning to end. I'm basically on my own with the car. **crosses fingers** LOL need someone to use my laptop remotley like they do when I call dell tech services for help.
     
  16. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
    20
    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    Ok guys tried the settings you gave. Same issue. Car isn't giving any spark just fuel. Car ran fine before I got this kiggly sensor. Today I tried the settings you posted, kigglys settings and also another persons settings I found online. Nothing is working and I'm leaning towards just taking the sensor back out but then that means I wasted few hundred bucks for no reason. I really don't know what else to do

     
  17. Lambiablo

    Lambiablo Proven Member

    91
    3
    Joined Apr 8, 2008
    Elon, North Carolina
    Thanks for posting an update Critic. I've either been out of town or sick in the last week and haven't done anything with my car since. I still have a bit to do before I'm ready to try and start the car up again. Although I'm kind of expecting the same result you got...
     

    433  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    000.0 whp · 000.0 lb/ft · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  18. Critic4Du3ce

    Critic4Du3ce Proven Member

    140
    20
    Joined Apr 7, 2010
    Ny, New Jersey
    Any update on this??????
     
  19. gsx4g64

    gsx4g64 Proven Member

    271
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    Joined Oct 14, 2005
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    I am having a similar issue. I am getting fuel and spark. The car is popping. It just wont start. I have a controlled CAS (stock), and the CAS with the trigger disc. I used the setting for trigger disc. But, still no start. I am not able to verify the timing without the car running. The instructions read to verify the timing prior to the car starting. however, the engine isnt spinning fast enough to find the timing mark.

    Does anyone have any more information?
     

    1K  10

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    856 whp · 587 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  20. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Kenne, did you confirm your cam/crank phasing using the images I posted above? It's never going to start good if they are not phased correctly. Look at Post #9.

    Options - Ignition Phasing - if using AEM EMS V1 software AEM PRO V1 - It is under the ignition header tab, then go to Advanced Ignition, then to Ignition Phasing, then to Options - Ignition Phasing.

    Then enter the following information:

    Ignition Sync - 3.1 teeth
    Pickup Delay Comp - 48 uSec
    Tooth #1 = 6
    Tooth #2 = 0
    Tooth #3 = 0
    Tooth #4 = 0
    Tooth #5 = 0
    Tooth #6 = 18
    Tooth #7 = 12
    Tooth #8 = 0
    Tooth #9 = 0
    Tooth #10 = 0

    Then go to fuel injector phasing - It is under the Fuel header tap, then go to Advanced Fuel, then to Injector Phasing, then to Options - Injector Phasing.

    Then enter the following information:

    Injector Phase = 14.5 teeth
    Inject Tooth #01 = 0
    Inject Tooth #02 = 12
    Inject Tooth #03 = 6
    Inject Tooth #04 = 18
    Inject Tooth #05 = 0
    Inject Tooth #06 = 0
    Inject Tooth #07 = 0
    Inject Tooth #08 = 0
    Inject Tooth #09 = 0
    Inject Tooth #10 = 0


    Give that a try.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  21. gsx4g64

    gsx4g64 Proven Member

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    Joined Oct 14, 2005
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    Hey Tim,
    I did figure it out. My timing was so far off the car would have never started. I had to get the timing as close as possible without the car running. I removed all of the plugs and spun the motor to find the timing marks. Once I did that, and installed the plugs, the car started right up.

    I do have a question Tim. My injector phasing is at 13.80, and yours is at 14.5. what did you notice with this change. I think we are both using 2150's.

    Our ign phase is different as well. just trying to understand it more. Thanks
     

    1K  10

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    856 whp · 587 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  22. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    This was on a 97-99 wiring harness, so that might explain the firing order. As for the injector phasing, i went up and down until i found where it felt smooth.
     

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  23. gsx4g64

    gsx4g64 Proven Member

    271
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    Joined Oct 14, 2005
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    Tim, I tried your settings. The car did start even faster. But I checked the timing because the idle wasn't smooth. The timing was way off. Do you think I should go back to my other settings? Or do I need to change the ign phase?
     

    1K  10

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    856 whp · 587 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  24. gsx4g64

    gsx4g64 Proven Member

    271
    3
    Joined Oct 14, 2005
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    Im using a earlier harness with the 97-99 fuel relays.
     

    1K  10

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    856 whp · 587 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  25. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

    3,684
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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Take my numbers as a starting point; you can adjust ignition sync teeth and injector phase teeth numbers to dial it in.
     

    Drag Race Build 8K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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