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AEM Kiggly 12 Tooth trigger Car won't start

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Lambiablo

15+ Year Contributor
91
4
Apr 8, 2008
Elon, North_Carolina
Hello,

I have been struggling to get my car started following the install of the revised Kiggly 12 tooth trigger disc, the car started and ran fine before.

I'm running a stock coil.

The car is a 6 bolt swapped 2G (98) running an AEM series 1. I was running a green top 1G CAS that was plugged into the 2G crank position plug via a plug and play harness (can't remember the company) also with the white wire spliced into the signal wire on the 2G cam position plug. (Again the car ran fine with this setup)

With the kiggly setup, I'm using his revised kit (has a support ring welded into the disc) and I've gone back to a 2G style cam angle sensor, same that comes with the trigger disc kit. This way I'll be running two of the same sensor for cam and crank. I cut the large cam pickup tooth off according to Kigglys instructions, as well as the setting changes in the ECU.

For anyone familiar with AEM (I'm sure other ECUs have a parameter like this too) there is a paramter called "Stat Sync'd" that is supposed to swith to "ON" within a few seconds of turning over the engine, it never goes "ON". Without this turning ON the car will not fire. I have confirmed I'm getting power (~12V with the ignition on) to the cam sensor of which this part of the harness hasn't been used for a while since I've been running the 1G CAS.

Any thoughts will be appreciated, I'm hoping someone can chime in that has seen or experienced this with 12 tooth trigger disc setups. I'm not sure how to see what the ECU is waiting for in terms of turnin ON "stat sync'd". I may eventually have to post this question to an AEM forum but figured I would begin here.

Thanks.
 
Hi Kyle, I think I still owed you a call back on this. Please verify both the sensors are providing a signal. The mitsu cam angle sensor that you now have at both the cam and crank locations are hall effect, pull to ground type sensors. When there is or isn't a magnetic material in front of the sensor, it switches from "open circuit" to a "pull-to-ground" behavior. It does not need speed to work, so this makes it easy to test. The ECU needs to be providing what is called pull-up voltage to the sensor. This is just a resistor up to 5V so the signal wire should show 5V when it isn't hooked to the sensor. This is also 5V when the sensor output is the 'open circuit' behavior. When the sensor is hooked up and powered, you should be able to slowly rotate the engine and see the output switch abruptly from just above 0V to 5V (and repeat) as the metal is passing in front of it.

If this works as intended and you're still seeing the ECU not go to stat sync'd when cranking with all the provided settings, I'm not sure what to check next. You may be able to check all this without a voltmeter as well, I believe in the advanced triggers page with the trigger tooth control table that it will cycle from white to yellow on the graph following which tooth the ECU has read while cranking. If you're not seeing that and have a functioning sensor as confirmed above, it is worth a call to AEM. If I recall correctly, your car had some unexpected settings when it was running with the OEM sensor, right? I'm not particularly an AEM expert and the stuff you had going on there didn't make a ton of sense to me.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
Hey Kevin, thanks for the reply. Yesterday evening I converted back to my previous setup (only about 10 minutes to swap the CAS and a couple plugs), it started and ran fine again. Before switching back I took a short video of a menu of crank/cam parameters, I did this again after switching to the old setup. In comparing the two, it seems as though (only my theory) the ecu is communicating with the crank and not the cam. The following parameters didn't register a value while cranking on the trigger disc setup "cam tooth", "cam-crank", "sync tooth", and "T2PER". These were all giving readings on the old setup. Parameters that gave readings on both were "crank tooth period", "fuel tooth" and "A Tooth". On the trigger disc setup I was getting lots of "sync errors".

My next plan was to power the sensor with a power supply and monitor the signal wire with/without the presence of the metal cam disc, to confirm I didn't get a bad sensor. Since I have these videos I may even try to get them to someone at AEM before switching back to the 12 tooth setup so I can drive the car in the meantime. I can also load the videos here when I have more than a tablet at my disposal if it will be helpful. I will also confirm I'm seeing 5V on the signal wire when unplugged, although the same wire works on my green top cas fine.

The only settings I recall us discussing were the "mag xxx" setttings. Can't remember off the top of my head, but they were rpm settings that you have set to 0 in the instructions, mine had 500, 400, 500, 400. Or something close to that.

Thanks,
Kyle L.
 
Hey Kevin, I figured I would post a small update here so this is all documented.

I did test and confirm that I'm getting 5V on the CAS signal wire when the sensor is unplugged. I expected this to be the case because the car runs fine with this same signal wire on the 1G CAS setup. I also monitored the signal wire while connected to the sensor. Using a multimeter I was seeing approximately 2.5V without a trigger tooth present and something like -0.5V with the tooth in front of the sensor. This was with the sensor plugged up but not bolted in place on the cylinder head, so the value when metal is present may be slightly off if the metal disc were rigidly connected to the cam. This sounds a little different than the behavior you were describing, or does it seem to be functioning as intended according to these values?

It may be a week or more now before I'm in a position to try anything else due losing a few bolts, (I'm now learning the ways of safety wire...).

Thanks,
Kyle L.
 
I'm in the same boat with the new sensor. Car just cranks gets fuel no spark at all idk what the issue could be sorry for thread jacking I'm stuck in the mud
 
No worries! I welcome any input on similar issues, so I know I'm not the only one at least!

What setup are you trying to run?
 
2g with a 6bolt swap aem v2. Car is only getting fuel while cranking. I can't get the kiggly piece synced I'm guessing.
 
I see. I would turn off your injectors (if you haven't already) until you know your ECU is going to sync properly. What CAS are you running? One thought I've had all this time is that something may be different from trying to run the 2G hall effect (what I'm trying to run) versus the 1G optical CAS with a trigger disc setup like this.
 
I ran into issues with mine (2G with 6-bolt, 90 CAS, Kiggly 12-tooth V1 on AEM EMS V1); for me it ended up being a phasing issue and a injector vs. cam trigger setup. Let me see if I can upload my AEM tune.
 

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I'm going to try again later today or tomorrow once I find the time. Sounds like I'm in the position you were once in twicks Hopefully this helps me I've been dying to have my car running smh everything is brand spanking new.

What I also need is what or how to set my injectors to (2150s fic e85). I'm starting this car up for the 1st time I'm sure there's more steps I should be taking as far as the aem. Any idea?
 
Personally I prefer to start the car on gasoline, then after its sorted I change to E85 and then increase the global fuel map percentage to compensate for E85 and then fine-tune the warmup enrichment and fuel maps.

Your FIC injectors should have come with an information sheet to use for battery voltage offsets.

For the injectors I am using:

  • RCI 2150cc Injectors - BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
  • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
  • 6 V 2.55 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
  • 8 V 1.45 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
  • 10 V 0.95 / 1.28 / 1.43 / 1.53
  • 12 V 0.68 / .85 / 1.03 / 1.11
  • 14 V .47 / .58 / .75 / .83
  • 16 V .36 / .45 / .60 / .69
  • Static Flow Rate: 2180cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
Here are some for Deatchworks 2200's
  • BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
  • Bosch 2200cc 0280158821
  • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
  • 8 V 1.57 / 1.81 / 1.96 / 2.08
  • 10 V 1.10 / 1.28 / 1.43 / 1.53
  • 12 V .72 / .85 / 1.03 / 1.11
  • 14 V .44 / .58 / .75 / .83
  • 16 V .25 / .45 / .60 / .69
  • Static Flow Rate: 2180cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
  • Static Flow Rate: 2770cc @ 58psi / 4bar
Here are some for Injector Dynamics 2200's
  • BATTERY OFFSET TABLE INFORMATION:
  • ID2000's - 2000.60.11.D.4
  • 43psi / 58psi / 70psi / 80psi
  • 8 V 1.46 / 1.65 / 1.83 / 1.97
  • 10 V 0.95 / 1.09 / 1.18 / 1.27
  • 12 V .68 / .76 / 0.84 / 0.93
  • 14 V .49 / .57 / .64 / .69
  • 16 V .38 / .45 / .50 / .53
  • Static Flow Rate: 2225cc @ 43.5psi / 3bar
 

Attachments

  • AEM battery offset primary table 2150cc injectors.JPG
    AEM battery offset primary table 2150cc injectors.JPG
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Last edited:
Awesome. Thanks for the info and screenshots twicks. I will try to compare with my settings this afternoon. Do you think phasing issues could prevent the car from synchronizing for startup? Or would it only prevent it from firing and running? In my case I've noticed that "Stat Sync'd" does not turn ON, at least during the times I've monitored it while cranking.
 
yes, for sure. I had it originally at Kevin's template information and it would fire up on 2 or 3 cylinders. I changed the crank/cam tooth vs. injector tooth parameters to the ones I have here and it fired up, then I used a timing light to sync the crank pulley to the timing marks and adjusted the phasing until it felt decent enough to fire up safe. I'll fine tune it on the dyno.
 
You could still have crank signal issue if you are not stat-synch'ing.
 
I'm Thinking that I should just start over from scratch. I don't have the paper the fic's came with either. Car has C.o.p but I know 1 cool is bad so I'm just going to put back the stock ignition stuff. I'll do this with 93 in the fuel cell and hope for the best. I wish I had someone in NYC to walk me through from beginning to end. I'm basically on my own with the car. **crosses fingers** LOL need someone to use my laptop remotley like they do when I call dell tech services for help.
 
Ok guys tried the settings you gave. Same issue. Car isn't giving any spark just fuel. Car ran fine before I got this kiggly sensor. Today I tried the settings you posted, kigglys settings and also another persons settings I found online. Nothing is working and I'm leaning towards just taking the sensor back out but then that means I wasted few hundred bucks for no reason. I really don't know what else to do

You could still have crank signal issue if you are not stat-synch'ing.
 
Thanks for posting an update Critic. I've either been out of town or sick in the last week and haven't done anything with my car since. I still have a bit to do before I'm ready to try and start the car up again. Although I'm kind of expecting the same result you got...
 
I am having a similar issue. I am getting fuel and spark. The car is popping. It just wont start. I have a controlled CAS (stock), and the CAS with the trigger disc. I used the setting for trigger disc. But, still no start. I am not able to verify the timing without the car running. The instructions read to verify the timing prior to the car starting. however, the engine isnt spinning fast enough to find the timing mark.

Does anyone have any more information?
 
Kenne, did you confirm your cam/crank phasing using the images I posted above? It's never going to start good if they are not phased correctly. Look at Post #9.

Options - Ignition Phasing - if using AEM EMS V1 software AEM PRO V1 - It is under the ignition header tab, then go to Advanced Ignition, then to Ignition Phasing, then to Options - Ignition Phasing.

Then enter the following information:

Ignition Sync - 3.1 teeth
Pickup Delay Comp - 48 uSec
Tooth #1 = 6
Tooth #2 = 0
Tooth #3 = 0
Tooth #4 = 0
Tooth #5 = 0
Tooth #6 = 18
Tooth #7 = 12
Tooth #8 = 0
Tooth #9 = 0
Tooth #10 = 0

Then go to fuel injector phasing - It is under the Fuel header tap, then go to Advanced Fuel, then to Injector Phasing, then to Options - Injector Phasing.

Then enter the following information:

Injector Phase = 14.5 teeth
Inject Tooth #01 = 0
Inject Tooth #02 = 12
Inject Tooth #03 = 6
Inject Tooth #04 = 18
Inject Tooth #05 = 0
Inject Tooth #06 = 0
Inject Tooth #07 = 0
Inject Tooth #08 = 0
Inject Tooth #09 = 0
Inject Tooth #10 = 0


Give that a try.
 
Last edited:
Hey Tim,
I did figure it out. My timing was so far off the car would have never started. I had to get the timing as close as possible without the car running. I removed all of the plugs and spun the motor to find the timing marks. Once I did that, and installed the plugs, the car started right up.

I do have a question Tim. My injector phasing is at 13.80, and yours is at 14.5. what did you notice with this change. I think we are both using 2150's.

Our ign phase is different as well. just trying to understand it more. Thanks
 
This was on a 97-99 wiring harness, so that might explain the firing order. As for the injector phasing, i went up and down until i found where it felt smooth.
 
Tim, I tried your settings. The car did start even faster. But I checked the timing because the idle wasn't smooth. The timing was way off. Do you think I should go back to my other settings? Or do I need to change the ign phase?
 
Take my numbers as a starting point; you can adjust ignition sync teeth and injector phase teeth numbers to dial it in.
 
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