Just a heads up on NGK Vs Bosch Platinum Plus

[TrevorS]

I'm not pretending to know which plug is better for any given setup, but I am convinced as to which is better in my situation. Please understand my purpose is not to knock the NGK, but only to provide balance to what appears to me a one-sided discussion !

I've been running Bosch Platinum Plus for the past year (previously my car was dead for several months thanks to a burned up ECU). I've been strongly advised to switch to NGK copper, and so I did that Friday. Here is my result for my car. I make no claim regarding anyone else's Eclipse. So please don't feel that in any way I'm attacking anyone else's personal choice of spark plug. However, it's clear to me, this isn't a "one size fits all" situation . My car is a 1990 GSX with 125K miles.

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I definitely agree the NGK BPR6ES plugs (.028 gap) run differently from the Bosch Platimum Plus 4018 (pregapped), which is especially interesting since I was running that same NGK before my ECU burned up December 2007. I swapped out the plugs and leads at that time wondering if something there was preventing the car from starting -- obviously it wasn't ! My purchase of the Bosch instead of NGK was just curiosity (platinum being supposedly longer life).

However, after six miles with the brand new NGKs installed, I yanked them, put the Bosch back in, and took the car out again on the same run. Net result, there's no way I'll return to the NGK plugs. My idle speed dropped, throttle sensitivity dropped, willingness to spool dropped, an overall sense of sluggishness and lethargy settled on the car like a lead blanket after my lively experience of the Bosch. When driving with the Bosch, I keep having to let back off the throttle a little because the car seems to want to go. With the NGK, the car definitely doesn't go any faster unless I give it more throttle (in comparison, it's like having underinflated tires).

Now, my Eclipse is a 125K 1990 GSX with stock injectors, turbo, MAF, FP, FPR, and ECU. Maybe for some cars and configurations the NGK's work better, but unless some problem develops with the Bosch, I'm satisfied the Platinum Plus are a huge upgrade over the NGK for sheer driving enjoyment.

Photo of the NGK after 6 miles:

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Photo of the Bosch after 2K miles:

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[TrevorS]

Because it either had nothing to do with the plugs and was just random knock or the Boschs actually made it more prone to knock which pulled timing down low to fix the problem less aggressively.

However, if timing was pulled down low, I would definitely not have been pressed back in my seat as noticeably in fifth gear.

You can say knock all you wish, but I've no reason to believe it's the case. Please take a look at the above photo!

 

[the_mork]

Shocked oil only appears if the plugs are removed within a short period (a few miles or less) after the knock occurs.

If you want to run some Bosch plugs then go ahead. You will not have the best plugs available for your car but it will run and you can be happy if that is what you want. If your one test tells you that the Boschs are better and you believe that over the sustained, confirmed, and numerous tests of thousands of DSMers then that is fine. Have fun and report back occasionally.

However, if timing was pulled down low, I would definitely not have been pressed back in my seat as noticeably in fifth gear.

You can say knock all you wish, but I've no reason to believe it's the case. Please take a look at the above photo!

Yes you would have. A couple degrees of timing means little on a turbo car compared to more boost. My car can pull hard after shedding 5* or more.

 

[TrevorS]

If you had a logger and a way to record 70-90mph times, then that would put the performance part to rest. Sometimes I feel so spoiled having DSMLink.

Do you have any way at all to quantify your results? 0-60 time, mpg, dyno numbers, anything? Maybe at near stock power levels it could be an improvement like you have experienced. I am trying to run 28 psi out of an 18g and 20* timing on 9:1 CR, so I need a plug that sheds heat quick but that's me.

I wouldn't use Bosch either, but I am tempted to try it out for the f_ck of it now.

I can't read plugs so I can't help you there.

I'm a more casual driver and only occasionally use boost, so no, I don't have numbers to offer ! For all I know at high boost (higher than mine anyway) the NGK's are mandatory. You're dealing with a different animal from me and so please understand I'm not in any way suggesting you should be using the Bosch Platinum Plus plugs instead of NGK. I'm also not suggesting any other variety of Bosch plug works in these cars -- I don't know! All I'm saying is that based on my personal experience (as in today) NGK plugs are not necessarily the best choice. In my vehicle, the Bosch plugs beat the pants off the NGK as far as I'm concerned !

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

The difference you "feel" between the plugs is in your head. Neither of those two plugs will make a difference on your completely stock car. When you crank the boost and start cramming more fuel into your engine, you WILL knock badly with platinum plugs. They are NOT good for turbo engines due to their heat retention as was said thousands of times before on this forum. Run them for now if you want but I highly suggest you switch back to ngks once you decide to go faster.

 

[TrevorS]

Shocked oil only appears if the plugs are removed within a short period (a few miles or less) after the knock occurs.

If you want to run some Bosch plugs then go ahead. You will not have the best plugs available for your car but it will run and you can be happy if that is what you want. If your one test tells you that the Boschs are better and you believe that over the sustained, confirmed, and numerous tests of thousands of DSMers then that is fine. Have fun and report back occasionally.

You say thousands of DSMers, but what it really comes down to is a combination of a sizable number of configurations and large numbers of people who would never use Platinum simply because they've been told at forums such as this one that they mustn't. So, apparently you completely disregard the evidence of my older long term plugs -- whatever !

As I said up front, if I experience issues attributable to the Bosch plugs I'll have to re-evaluate. But for the first 2K miles, the car performs sizably better with them than with the NGK.

The difference you "feel" between the plugs is in your head. Neither of those two plugs will make a difference on your completely stock car. When you crank the boost and start cramming more fuel into your engine, you WILL knock badly with platinum plugs. They are NOT good for turbo engines due to their heat retention as was said thousands of times before on this forum. Run them for now if you want but I highly suggest you switch back to ngks once you decide to go faster.

Of course it is ! All my driving impressions where fallacious and the result of the cocain coursing through my veins while on the road . That's why I wasted perfectly good money on new NGK's, just so I could gain the personal satisfaction of publicly discrediting them on this forum ! Right ? (Please!!!! I'd much rather have the $8 back in my wallet than the dubious distinction of raising a questioning voice on the DSMtuner forum !)

I never suggested that the Bosch Platinum Plus was an appropriate solution for all or even most vehicle configurations. I'm only saying that it is working very well in my own vehicle with my present configuration, and for me to choose the NGK would be a distinct step in the wrong direction.

 

[7"exhaust_tip]

Copied this from somewhere:

"Platinum plugs actually have a piece of platinum in them, hence the name, that heats up very quickly. What this does is help ensure a more complete burn in the combustion chamber, thus reducing wasted gas and in turn, lowering overall emissions. Platinum plugs are great for a stock daily driver, and can last a long time because the platinum gets so hot that it burns up any deposits on the plug; in essence it is self-cleaning. However, on a turbocharged or nitrous application, where you are increasing cylinder pressure and thus, heat, the platinum in the plug can become the hottest point in the combustion chamber and can actually ignite the mixture before the plug even fires. This is called pre-ignition, and actually tries to force the piston back down the cylinder while it's on it's upwards travel. This is not good. This breaks rods"



Anyways. I suggest doing a search on google or something that deals with "platinum plugs and turbos", you will find all kinds of forums all saying the same thing. Not just this forum. It is basically a known fact. Such as 2 + 2 = 4.

But you can keep doing whatever you like. It is your car. Maybe go ahead and vent your bov on stock mas too.

 

[lacroixdp]

I certainly won't argue that detonation is bad, be it n/a or F/I, however, my car evinces no sign of distress of any sort under boost -- it just pulls very well. So, how much of this argument is theoretical, and how much is a real problem with my vehicle. I'd say theoretical wins !

You can't say this with any certainty whatsoever, since you don't have any logging equipment to speak of, not even MMCd. IMHO, instead of listening to people explaining why platinum plugs are bad in a forced induction engine, you're going on the 'seat of your pants' feeling instead. That's fine. I'll tell you this though - I've seen engines ruined by detonation - it isn't pretty at all. So if you're going to run platinum plugs against the recommendations of veteran tuners on this board, I'd say you've been forewarned of the consequences. If your car isn't functioning properly with the NGK plugs, it's because there's an underlying problem with your vehicle - not the plugs.

 

[the_mork]

You say thousands of DSMers, but what it really comes down to is a combination of a sizable number of configurations and large numbers of people who would never use Platinum simply because they've been told at forums such as this one that they mustn't. So, apparently you completely disregard the evidence of my older long term plugs -- whatever !

Yes, well you appear to use a very elementary definition of evidence and the scientific method. That isn't an insult just an observation. A quality comparison of the plugs and attention to quality datum as adhered to in the scientific method has and almost certainly will continue to point to NGK plugs being better in our cars (and turbo cars in general) from a performance standpoint. If you'd like to learn more about NGK plugs then you can read that on this forum. If you would like some books on evidence, arguments, and the scientific method then I could provide you with a few titles.

This argument should serve to be very enlightening to other new members who are interested in what spark plugs are best. You have come up with all of the good questions about plug performance and AFAIK they have all been answered thoroughly.

 

[TrevorS]

Copied this from somewhere:

"Platinum plugs actually have a piece of platinum in them, hence the name, that heats up very quickly. What this does is help ensure a more complete burn in the combustion chamber, thus reducing wasted gas and in turn, lowering overall emissions. Platinum plugs are great for a stock daily driver, and can last a long time because the platinum gets so hot that it burns up any deposits on the plug; in essence it is self-cleaning. However, on a turbocharged or nitrous application, where you are increasing cylinder pressure and thus, heat, the platinum in the plug can become the hottest point in the combustion chamber and can actually ignite the mixture before the plug even fires. This is called pre-ignition, and actually tries to force the piston back down the cylinder while it's on it's upwards travel. This is not good. This breaks rods"



Anyways. I suggest doing a search on google or something that deals with "platinum plugs and turbos", you will find all kinds of forums all saying the same thing. Not just this forum. It is basically a known fact. Such as 2 + 2 = 4.

But you can keep doing whatever you like. It is your car. Maybe go ahead and vent your bov on stock mas too.

Since learning of the copper Vs Paltinum controversy, I've spent a number of hours researching to try to determine whether platinum is a problem (also iridium) Vs copper in these engines. I've read many things including a turbo dyno test that lacked sufficient controls, but that suggested the Platinum could actually deliver higher HP. This is a subject highly reminiscent of religion and politics. It just doesn't do well to introduce it in "polite" company. By all means enjoy your "facts", I'm not trying to take them away from you or anyone else, I'm merely presenting an example where NGK is not the best choice.

Suggesting I'd vent the Bypass Valve to atmosphere is not a fair comment and I would not do that. So kindly keep a civil tounge on the forum !

You can't say this with any certainty whatsoever, since you don't have any logging equipment to speak of, not even MMCd. IMHO, instead of listening to people explaining why platinum plugs are bad in a forced induction engine, you're going on the 'seat of your pants' feeling instead. That's fine. I'll tell you this though - I've seen engines ruined by detonation - it isn't pretty at all. So if you're going to run platinum plugs against the recommendations of veteran tuners on this board, I'd say you've been forewarned of the consequences.

My response is that detonation results in certain vehicle behaviors, none of which are either now or have ever been evinced by my stock controlled vehicle. So, by your reccomendation I can spend hundreds of dollars to produce and present data that either proves or disproves my position, or for my own part, I can presume the ECU and knock sensor behavior is sound for the purpose of detecting knock and protecting the vehicle. I'll go with the anti knock systems built into the factory design -- they knew perfectly well NGK would not be the only plug that got installed, the warranty still stood.

 

[lacroixdp]

I can presume the ECU and knock sensor behavior is sound for the purpose of detecting knock and protecting the vehicle. I'll go with the anti knock systems built into the factory design -- they knew perfectly well NGK would not be the only plug that got installed, the warranty still stood.

If this were the case, you'd never see a stock motor with a detonated piston. I can tell you that is not the case.

 

[TrevorS]

Yes, well you appear to use a very elementary definition of evidence and the scientific method. That isn't an insult just an observation. A quality comparison of the plugs and attention to quality datum as adhered to in the scientific method has and almost certainly will continue to point to NGK plugs being better in our cars (and turbo cars in general) from a performance standpoint. If you'd like to learn more about NGK plugs then you can read that on this forum. If you would like some books on evidence, arguments, and the scientific method then I could provide you with a few titles.

This argument should serve to be very enlightening to other new members who are interested in what spark plugs are best. You have come up with all of the good questions about plug performance and AFAIK they have all been answered thoroughly.

As I've said more than once, I'm not suggesting that the Bosch Platinum Plus plugs are the better choice for these vehicles in general. I'm merely pointing out that at least in one configuration (my factory controlled 1990 GSX), they provide better road performance. It's up to each individual to make their own decisions about anything at all they install in their vehicle (any vehicle).

 

[the_mork]

My response is that detonation results in certain vehicle behaviors, none of which are either now or have ever been evinced by my stock controlled vehicle. So, by your reccomendation I can spend hundreds of dollars to produce and present data that either proves or disproves my position, or for my own part, I can presume the ECU and knock sensor behavior is sound for the purpose of detecting knock and protecting the vehicle. I'll go with the anti knock systems built into the factory design -- they knew perfectly well NGK would not be the only plug that got installed, the warranty still stood.

You would never know this because you wont feel mild knock. My car even after 36 counts of knock (maxed out) and negative timing advance still pulls harder than most stock cars on the road and that is a ridiculously extreme example.

A platinum plug is usually fine for a stock vehicle. You aren't stock (even though you aren't terribly far from it) and if there is a problem when you are running NGK plugs then you have a problem with your car and not your plugs. We are trying to help you find the issue that is causing your problems because it is not the plug. If you'd like to continue driving a broken car without attempting to find the problem then so be it.

Also a logging system is pretty cheap. You can get everything you need for <$100

 

[TrevorS]

If this were the case, you'd never see a stock motor with a detonated piston.

You're right, I'm unaware of a stock engine and control system with properly operating components being damaged by detonation. Of course, if the engine is clearly having difficulties, it only makes good sense to find out why instead of ignoring it -- just as with any other misbehavior.

 

[lacroixdp]

You're right, I'm unaware of a stock engine and control system with properly operating components being damaged by detonation. Of course, if the engine is clearly having difficulties, it only makes good sense to find out why instead of ignoring it -- just as with any other misbehavior.

That's exactly what I'm saying - your engine is clearly having difficulties if the proper spark plugs don't work right in there. Like the_mork said, we're just trying to help you find out why they aren't working right for you.

 

[TrevorS]

You would never know this because you wont feel mild knock. My car even after 36 counts of knock (maxed out) and negative timing advance still pulls harder than most stock cars on the road and that is a ridiculously extreme example.

A platinum plug is usually fine for a stock vehicle. You aren't stock (even though you aren't terribly far from it) and if there is a problem when you are running NGK plugs then you have a problem with your car and not your plugs. We are trying to help you find the issue that is causing your problems because it is not the plug. If you'd like to continue driving a broken car without attempting to find the problem then so be it.

Also a logging system is pretty cheap. You can get everything you need for <$100

If the car is "broken", what would cause it?

 

[the_mork]

Intermittent knock, bad base timing, boost leaks, uncalibrated maf (hacked), cross-threaded plug, excessively high intake temps (no heatshields with/or open filter), compression issues, driver bias, or a hundred other things.

Getting a logger would help a ton.

 

[lacroixdp]

Who said they don't work? They just don't work as well as what I'm used to. That's the nature of comparison. Remember, I was using NGK just 2K ago -- I had no reason to criticize them!

My idle speed dropped, throttle sensitivity dropped, willingness to spool dropped, an overall sense of sluggishness and lethargy settled on the car like a lead blanket after my lively experience of the Bosch.

If you're getting these symptoms it means they aren't working right for you. +1 for the logger - it would make diagnosis much easier. Do a BLT.

 

[TrevorS]

Intermittent knock, bad base timing, boost leaks, uncalibrated maf (hacked), cross-threaded plug, excessively high intake temps (no heatshields with/or open filter), compression issues, driver bias, or a hundred other things.

Getting a logger would help a ton.

Grief !

Well, as an immediate response -- The base timing is what the dealership left it at about four years ago when the timing belts were changed. I performed a BLT and the only leak (EGR vacuum hose) was repaired. My MAF is OE, I wouldn't go near that hack craziness. Plug threads are perfect. Both exhaust heat shields are in place, and the intake air canister is only open facing the right front corner. The compression is #1 162psi, #2 154psi, #3 157psi, #4 167psi. Driver bias ???

Frankly, I'm not in a hurry to part with $100 in today's economy to potentially learn more about something that isn't occuring in any way as a problem !

 

[rbwtrans]

I tryed the bosch plugs. 3 sets in 1 day. They were good for 1 pull. Every time I hit 17 psi, the porcelan would split, causing bad miss-fires.

 

[TrevorS]

If you're getting these symptoms it means they aren't working right for you. +1 for the logger - it would make diagnosis much easier. Do a BLT.

I'm not saying the mentioned behavior changes are relative to the NGK I was using 2K ago, they are relative to the Bosch Platinum Plus I've been using for the past 2K. If you look at the old NGK, they have the same appearance as the new NGK are clearly going. The behavior is consistent as regards the NGK, the car was fine relative to my expectations back then -- but I only asked of it DD duties and a very occasional push -- which it delivered just fine (definitely better than n/a -- my reference . However, I'm expecting a lot more from it now.

 

[TrevorS]

I tryed the bosch plugs. 3 sets in 1 day. They were good for 1 pull. Every time I hit 17 psi, the porcelan would split, causing bad miss-fires.

Just for my own curiosity, which Bosch plugs are you talking about. I've read of porcelain splits with those multi-prong jobs.

That's exactly what I'm saying - your engine is clearly having difficulties if the proper spark plugs don't work right in there. Like the_mork said, we're just trying to help you find out why they aren't working right for you.

Who said they don't work? They just don't work as well as what I'm used to. That's the nature of comparison. Remember, I was using NGK just 2K ago -- I had no reason to criticize them!

 

[rbwtrans]

The first 2 sets were the 4 prong, the 3rd was the "normal" platnums. I went to the NGK Iridiums after that. 4k after that I went back to the copper core NGK's. BTW I did all this several years ago without "knowing" that the DSM crowd's favorite was the NGK's. Good luck with the Bosch plugs. I have found that they truely don't work well for long in anything.

 

[crimsondragon]

Jesus...
1. You people need to learn to freakin' edit your posts. STOP DOUBLE POSTING.
2. So Bosch works for your car. That's nice. 99% of the other DSMs run NGKs. Yours is an alien.
3. You have no numbers whatsoever to prove this so for all we know you could be bsing just to see how far you can take this whole Bosch Vs. NGK.
4. I take your butt dyno with less than a grain of salt.

 

[TrevorS]

The first 2 sets were the 4 prong, the 3rd was the "normal" platnums. I went to the NGK Iridiums after that. 4k after that I went back to the copper core NGK's. BTW I did all this several years ago without "knowing" that the DSM crowd's favorite was the NGK's. Good luck with the Bosch plugs. I have found that they truely don't work well for long in anything.

Hey, man ! I just installed those buggers 2K ago and so I don't have any long term experience to point to. For all I know my ignition could be in deep doo-doo before I hit 12K, but on the other hand, maybe not !

I want it to be plain I'm not a racer. I'm a very easy going driver who occasional reaches for the boost to verify it's still there and to feel I could respond to the forever series of challenges out there if I chose to, which I don't ! (Also useful for the occasional tight merge !) You'll never find my car at a dyno or at a drag strip or any competitive event.

However, that doesn't mean I don't care about my car or how it performs, it just means I have lower expectations than at least many on this forum. For me, the push back in fifth gear is telling, since it really was a non-event in the old days. What I'm reading here is that your interpretation of my finding the Bosch Platinum Plus a better performer in my car than the NGK, simply comes down to something being wrong with my car. That maps with religion in my book, but belief is belief no matter how you argue it. If you had just looked at my old NGK plugs, you wouldn't be using the knock card. However, it appears my six mile old plugs are susceptible to this argument, even though my supposedly more knock susceptible Bosch Platinum Plus show normal healthy function. It's clear there's no winning respect on this (at least without paying dollars for a data logger and God knows what after that), but that really wasn't my point.

Judging by my results, some readers of this forum will probably benefit from choosing the Bosch Platinum Plus instead of the NGK. My purpose is only to raise it as an option -- helpful for some, apparently not for others. Personally, I don't have stock in either company, so it really doesn't make a great deal of difference !

 

[MrBoxx]

In the interests of good debate, we'll leave this open for a little while, provided the discussion stays civil. Back your statements up with data or sources. Don't resort to petty flaming.

Trevor, I think what everyone's getting at here is that there is something going on with your car that is causing it to run differently than it should with the NGK plugs. If we had some datalogs to look at, or if you tried them out for longer than 6 miles, we might have some more information to work with. It's been the experience of thousands of DSM'ers for years that using platinum plugs in our cars is just not the best way to go about things. I myself tried some Denso platinum plugs years ago and found a loss of horsepower, loss of fuel economy, hesitation, stumbling at idle, etc. Switching to NGK BPR6ES immediately made all those problems go away.

Also, the gap is .028", not .28". If you happened to gap them at .28", well.. there's your problem.