Just a heads up on NGK Vs Bosch Platinum Plus

[TrevorS]

I'm not pretending to know which plug is better for any given setup, but I am convinced as to which is better in my situation. Please understand my purpose is not to knock the NGK, but only to provide balance to what appears to me a one-sided discussion !

I've been running Bosch Platinum Plus for the past year (previously my car was dead for several months thanks to a burned up ECU). I've been strongly advised to switch to NGK copper, and so I did that Friday. Here is my result for my car. I make no claim regarding anyone else's Eclipse. So please don't feel that in any way I'm attacking anyone else's personal choice of spark plug. However, it's clear to me, this isn't a "one size fits all" situation . My car is a 1990 GSX with 125K miles.

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I definitely agree the NGK BPR6ES plugs (.028 gap) run differently from the Bosch Platimum Plus 4018 (pregapped), which is especially interesting since I was running that same NGK before my ECU burned up December 2007. I swapped out the plugs and leads at that time wondering if something there was preventing the car from starting -- obviously it wasn't ! My purchase of the Bosch instead of NGK was just curiosity (platinum being supposedly longer life).

However, after six miles with the brand new NGKs installed, I yanked them, put the Bosch back in, and took the car out again on the same run. Net result, there's no way I'll return to the NGK plugs. My idle speed dropped, throttle sensitivity dropped, willingness to spool dropped, an overall sense of sluggishness and lethargy settled on the car like a lead blanket after my lively experience of the Bosch. When driving with the Bosch, I keep having to let back off the throttle a little because the car seems to want to go. With the NGK, the car definitely doesn't go any faster unless I give it more throttle (in comparison, it's like having underinflated tires).

Now, my Eclipse is a 125K 1990 GSX with stock injectors, turbo, MAF, FP, FPR, and ECU. Maybe for some cars and configurations the NGK's work better, but unless some problem develops with the Bosch, I'm satisfied the Platinum Plus are a huge upgrade over the NGK for sheer driving enjoyment.

Photo of the NGK after 6 miles:

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Photo of the Bosch after 2K miles:

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[neoviper]

The biggest reason why we run NGK Coppers is because coppers cools faster than Platnums, so the platnums will be much more conducive to knock. Even if they did perform better I still wouldn't risk the chance of knocking and change to a bosch plug. I'd much rather fee safe from engine knock while at full boost

 

[the_mork]

Something is wrong with your car. The NGK plugs should always run better than the Boschs.

It looks like you were knocking when you had the NGK plugs in. Were you logging at the time?

 

[neoviper]

Good pickup mork I actually didn't even consider the possibility that he might be knocking. I doubt this has anything to do with it but could the gapping be the issue? .28 sounds kinda small

 

[TrevorS]

I know what knock sounds like and I drive with the radio off. There is no audible problem and if the ECU detected a knock problem, it would roll back the timing, and that would be detectable in the vehicle performance -- it doesn't happen. I don't have a logger.

Something is wrong with your car. The NGK plugs should always run better than the Boschs.

Why?

Good pickup mork I actually didn't even consider the possibility that he might be knocking. I doubt this has anything to do with it but could the gapping be the issue? .28 sounds kinda small

0.28 was specifically recommended(ie. told) me by the moderators of this forum.

 

[neoviper]

Why?

Because they run colder and for whatever reason our cars just like them. This has been the unanimous decision from hundreds of dsm'ers. And personally I've never had any spectacular experiances with bosch products

 

[TrevorS]

Also, if the NGK were perfect for my car, why does the photo already show them accumulating a tan ash, as opposed to the healthy gray exhibited by the Bosch Platinum Plus?

 

[7"exhaust_tip]

I would never ever let bosch plugs come within 20 ft of my engine bay.

That is crazy what you are experiencing.

 

[TrevorS]

Because they run colder and for whatever reason our cars just like them. This has been the unanimous decision from hundreds of dsm'ers. And personally I've never had any spectacular experiances with bosch products

OK, that's perfectly good hearsay and religion, but what does that have to do with cars that perform better with the Bosch Platinum Plus?

I would never ever let bosch plugs come within 20 ft of my engine bay.

That is crazy what you are experiencing.

Perhaps, but what I'm experiencing isn't hearsay or religion -- it's absolute fact!

 

[neoviper]

Also, if the NGK were perfect for my car, why does the photo already show them accumulating a tan ash, as opposed to the healthy gray exhibited by the Bosch Platinum Plus?

Again because the ngk's are burning colder. The platinums are burning hotter, hence the gray. what you see on the ngk's is just carbon from the unburned fuel


I'm not saying this to offend you so please dont take it that way, but is this your first turbo car?

 

[the_mork]

The NGKs are what your car was made for. The Boschs just tend to be a problem and nearly universally people see real performance losses with them. The biggest problem is that the Bosch (Platinum even more so) have smaller electrodes which increase chances of spark blowout.

You think you hear all the knock in your engine? I almost always hear knock when it is above 5-8 counts but below that it is hard to tell. What I am SEEING is knock on your spark plugs. Do you see the oil spatters on the NGKs? This looks to me like oil knocked from the piston rings during detonation.

Yes, you will have a performance decrease when the car sees knock. Isn't that what you were saying you felt that makes the Bosch supposedly much better?

 

[TrevorS]

Again because the ngk's are burning colder. The platinums are burning hotter, hence the gray. what you see on the ngk's is just carbon from the unburned fuel

I agree entirely. The Bosch are giving a hotter spark and a more complete burn, this is evident while driving the car (including during boost).

I'm not saying this to offend you so please dont take it that way, but is this your first turbo car?

No problem, and yes it is, but it's not my first car -- I've had a number.

 

[the_mork]

I agree entirely. The Bosch are giving a hotter spark and a more complete burn, this is evident while driving the car (including during boost).

Hotter burn isn't good in high boost, it tends to cause detonation. I'm also not sure the Boschs are producing a hotter spark. For curiosities sake (actually for a good purpose) what boost are you running?

 

[TrevorS]

The NGKs are what your car was made for. The Boschs just tend to be a problem and nearly universally people see real performance losses with them. The biggest problem is that the Bosch (Platinum even more so) have smaller electrodes which increase chances of spark blowout.

You think you hear all the knock in your engine? I almost always hear knock when it is above 5-8 counts but below that it is hard to tell. What I am SEEING is knock on your spark plugs. Do you see the oil spatters on the NGKs? This looks to me like oil knocked from the piston rings during detonation.

Yes, you will have a performance decrease when the car sees knock. Isn't that what you were saying you felt that makes the Bosch supposedly much better?

No, I'm not presuming I hear all knock, that's what the knock sensor is for and the ECU definitely counts it. If I apply throttle with the Bosch Platinum Plus, I get a stronger response than with the NGK, so I don't begin to understand your last sentence.

Hotter burn isn't good in high boost, it tends to cause detonation. I'm also not sure the Boschs are producing a hotter spark. For curiosities sake (actually for a good purpose) what boost are you running?

As indicated in the first post, I'm running stock with the exception of a recently removed BCS restrictor.

 

[lacroixdp]

I agree entirely. The Bosch are giving a hotter spark and a more complete burn, this is evident while driving the car (including during boost).

It is only hotter as a function of their design - platinum plugs hold heat very well. So well in fact it can cause premature ignition in turbocharged cars. Premature ignition when you're pushing your turbo is a bad thing.

Edit: the_mork beat me to it I guess I need to work on my touch typing skills

 

[the_mork]

No, I'm not presuming I hear all knock, that's what the knock sensor is for and the ECU definitely counts it. If I apply throttle with the Bosch Platinum Plus, I get a stronger response than with the NGK, so I don't begin to understand your last sentence.

I mean that you issue with low response came because the car was knocking. There is probably an underlying cause that had nothing to do with your spark plugs.

It may be worth your time to try a 7 series plug.

 

[My1GLaser]

If you had a logger and a way to record 70-90mph times, then that would put the performance part to rest. Sometimes I feel so spoiled having DSMLink.

Do you have any way at all to quantify your results? 0-60 time, mpg, dyno numbers, anything? Maybe at near stock power levels it could be an improvement like you have experienced. I am trying to run 28 psi out of an 18g and 20* timing on 9:1 CR, so I need a plug that sheds heat quick but that's me.

I wouldn't use Bosch either, but I am tempted to try it out for the f_ck of it now.

I can't read plugs so I can't help you there.

 

[TrevorS]

It is only hotter as a function of their design - platinum plugs hold heat very well. So well in fact it can cause premature ignition in turbocharged cars. Premature ignition when you're pushing your turbo is a bad thing.

Edit: the_mork beat me to it I guess I need to work on my touch typing skills

I certainly won't argue that detonation is bad, be it n/a or F/I, however, my car evinces no sign of distress of any sort under boost -- it just pulls very well. So, how much of this argument is theoretical, and how much is a real problem with my vehicle. I'd say theoretical wins !

 

[neoviper]

The boschs dont necessarily make a hotter spark, but since they don't cool easily they become almost like sparks themselves igniting the fuel as soon as it touches the plug. And with turbo cars you would much rather see some black carbon than gray, this because the gray is telling you that the temps are much higher, meaning theres a higher chance of knock and is the reason why turbo cars stay away from platnums. We have a hard enough time battle knock with higher boost pressures as it is

 

[the_mork]

Given the shocked oil on your plugs I'd say there is more evidence than theory here. Your car will knock from time to time no matter how conservative you are with it.

 

[TrevorS]

I mean that you issue with low response came because the car was knocking. There is probably an underlying cause that had nothing to do with your spark plugs.

It may be worth your time to try a 7 series plug.

Well, the car has 125K miles on it and definitely falls short of the compression it had when new. I just performed a leak down test on it and the numbers were roughly 17%, 18%, 21%, 17% from #4 to #1 and it's predominantly past the rings. The best compressing cylinder is #4 which just so happens is the only NGK plug that actually is gray in color -- the rest are tan (just like the last set of NGK's I had installed). Remember, the photo above shows NGK plugs that were only installed for six miles (mostly in town -- practically no heavy throttle, and even then well short of WOT)!

Given the shocked oil on your plugs I'd say there is more evidence than theory here. Your car will knock from time to time no matter how conservative you are with it.

There's nothing I can do about the oil blow-by short of honing the cylinders and replacing the rings. The lowest compression number is 153psi -- do you recommend engine work?

The boschs dont necessarily make a hotter spark, but since they don't cool easily they become almost like sparks themselves igniting the fuel as soon as it touches the plug. And with turbo cars you would much rather see some black carbon than gray, this because the gray is telling you that the temps are much higher, meaning theres a higher chance of knock and is the reason why turbo cars stay away from platnums. We have a hard enough time battle knock with higher boost pressures as it is

I understand what you're saying, but I'm coming from the actual road behavior of my car ! I count on the engineering of the ECU and knock sensor to control the timing so that any detonation well be detected and controlled. I know that significant detonation detected by the knock sensor and read by the ECU will effectively result in killing the vehicle boost/acceleration. My modifications are modest compared to many on this forum (see my profile), but there's no question that when I reach for boost, the car delivers it, it doesn't take a dive.

So, my concern comes down to having an enjoyable and non-misbehaving ride. I'm getting exactly that using the Bosch Platinum Plus plugs.

 

[the_mork]

The oil on the plugs is from knock. Even a perfectly healthy engine will have this happen with knock. I think you aren't exactly understanding what I am saying.

When an engine knocks it is a big vibration and violent. This is why you can hear severe knock in the cabin. When this happens it sends a deforming wave through the cylinder which shocks the piston rings and causes them to throw oil, this is why your NGK plugs have oil on them and the Bosch ones didn't.

This is just a guess but most likely the hotter body of the Boschs induced small knock at low load which is significantly less violent and easier to correct. The Ecu probably pulled between 1/3 and 2 degrees of timing and you managed to pull pretty hard to your peak. With the NGKs your knock took a little bit longer to cause your knock at a point past the switchover between low and high gain for the knock sensor which caused it to count the knock instances at a higher multiplier that pulled significantly more timing.

I understand an evo knock system much better than that of a DSM, the DSM knock system is largely analog while the evo system is digital past the initial knock signal. Other than that the systems are quite similar. In an evo system once you pass the high gain area of the knock sensor map you reach a threshold where the ecu multiplies knock instances to make up for a reduced gain that exists to protect the sensor. This higher multiplier allows as few as 5 knock instances to create 35 counts of knock and literally pull enough timing to cause you to go into negative timing advance (that specifically I have logged on my car).

I would guess that this is what is happening to you but probably not quite to that extreme. Get a logger and figure out your knock issues.

 

[TrevorS]

OK, so if the NGK plugs exhibit knock, are you saying the Bosch are more knock tolerant -- sounds inconsistent with the argument of holding heat and therefore knock prone?

I just took a look at the NGK plugs that were pulled 2K miles ago in order to install the Bosch -- they are all four uniformly tan on the tips. So quite honestly -- I think your knock argument is ill founded due to there only being six miles on the plugs! I'll take a photo of those barely older plugs so you can see !

 

[the_mork]

Because it either had nothing to do with the plugs and was just random knock or the Boschs actually made it more prone to knock which pulled timing down low to fix the problem less aggressively.

 

[TrevorS]

OK, here's a photo of the NGK plugs that came out of this engine aprox 2K miles ago. They had been in for at least 5K, probably longer.

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