I just can't seem to get my car started (starter problem)

[howdeyjake]

Ok, ever since I got my car it has always started a little slow. Instead of turning over quick then starting, it would always just chug a little then fire up. After fixing a short that cost $500, replacing my battery, putting in a new alternator, and recientally installing a new starter, it plumb won't start! It still always started a little slow after I got the alternator, battery, and the short fixed, but after a couple weeks after putting my alternator in, it just quit on me and won't start at all so I bought a starter thinking it was that. After putting that in I plugged the positive wire onto the top part of the starter, tried to turn it over and it wouldn't start. Turns out the positive cable isn't even getting power. How can I solve this problem? The ignition switch is setting off the relay, and the starter relay is clicking just fine. What am I missing here?? Another wire going to the starter??? This is killing me, it's been a week since my car has ran!! Any help is appreciated!!


Thanks a bunch!,
Jake

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Replace the wire going from the starter to the positive terminal for the battery. Mine had corrosion on the end once and was giving me the same problem. Even if it isn't the problem, chances are it's never been replaced and sure could use it.

It's like $20 if even that at Autozone.

 

[wret]

There are two wires going to the starter: the main power wire (the big thick one), and the switch wire. The switch wire clips onto the "S" terminal and main wire goes under the nut on the "B" terminal.

Assuming you have things connected properly, test the switch wire to make sure it gets 12v when you turn the key.

The picture below shows the "B" terminal on the right. Yours may be on the left.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[wret]

The output from the starter relay should be wired directly to the S-terminal. There are no other devices in between.

This doesn't sound like it is related to your original problem. You were obviously getting voltage to the "S" terminal before, even though your starter wasn't working very well.

 

[IslanderTsi]

Try tapping your starter lightly with a mallet. If it starts up easily after that you know you have a bad or faulty starter.

 

[baracuda645]

I hope this helps a little, sound similiar to what your going through. They have a couple more things you can check. It helped me out.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210709&highlight=starter

They also describe were the wires should be connected.

that picture is the correct way to place your starter field coil goes on terminal M, not B, reason why theres not enough slack is to not get confused like I did, I pulled mines and didn't look before unscrewing things, if you hook everything up to terminal B (field coil and pos cable), soon as you hook back your battery more then likely it'll just engage your starter and your gonna think you have a bad one, field coil goes to terminal M, positive goes to terminal B and ground hooks to starter bolt.

 

[howdeyjake]

Actually that just may help. I'm going to go ground out that neg. cable just sitting there to one of the starter bolts. I doubt that will help because I alreaghty tried grounding it out to the frame but it can't hurt anything. Also it turns out that that Dah Dah Dah Dah clicking noise I have been hearing is coming from somewhere in my intake manifold, not my starter. I guess next is getting a new starter relay then on to a new ignition switch???

 

[baracuda645]

You can test your starter relay to make sure that it is working properly. Listed on the relay, there should be a diagram, that will show you how it should work. I'm at work right now and i cant remember specifically the connections at the moment.

 

[howdeyjake]

Wow that would help alot and possibly save me $30-35. I'm still not sure which one is the relay. There was two boxes and I just unplugged each of them untill the clicking stopped. Is that a way to find out if it is the relay?? I think it was the one on the left. Keep me posted!

Jake

 

[DSMcrazy3]

I'm going to go ground out that neg. cable just sitting there to one of the starter bolts. I doubt that will help because I alreaghty tried grounding it out to the frame but it can't hurt anything.

The negative should be connected to metal somewhere on one end right now. The other end should be coming off one of the terminals on the starter itself.

 

[baracuda645]

Wow that would help alot and possibly save me $30-35. I'm still not sure which one is the relay. There was two boxes and I just unplugged each of them untill the clicking stopped. Is that a way to find out if it is the relay?? I think it was the one on the left. Keep me posted!

The relay that is making the clicking noise should be the one with the yellow connector. Thats the one for your starter. You should be able to pull on it to get it out of the dash if not, it is held in by a 10mm bolt.

You can test your ignition switch to make sure that it is working properly. If you disconnect the the wiring harness from the ignition you'll see a thick white wire. That should have power running to it constanly. A thick black wire with a red stripe should be getting power only when you turn your key. If you are not getting power when you turn the key then you need to replace the switch. It sounds like yours is working or you would not be getting the clicking sound from your relay.

 

[GTM]

If my relay is clicking, does that necessarly mean that it is working??

I have some questions.

Has this problem always existed? Have you checked or replaced the grounds from the engine to the body? Do you have the correct starter? Has the flywheel and/or ring gear been changed? Was a shim between the flywheel and the crankshaft omitted if required.

......................

My thoughts are if the starter drive pinion gear is advancing too far into the flywheel ring gear it will cause the starter to bind and crank slow. It's been many years since I've seen problems like this, some starters have shims between the solenoid and the casting. This also influences the depth of throw of the pinion gear. This is timed by the solenoid piston being drawn in and closing the contact bar that passes curent to the windings and armature. If it starts to spin too early it chews up teeth. The solenoid can be grounded internally or through 1 of the brushes if only paired or 2 of the brushes if double paired depending on design. It is possible to have the solenoid operational but if one of the brush pairs not connecd to the selonoid bad the starter will operate at reduced capacity and results in a slow crank.

............

If the pinion gear is bottoming out against the flywheel you will see wear marks on the end of the teeth closest to the starter motor. (opposite the beveled end)
...............

Sorting this out may take a professional who can measure the cranking draw amps if the starter is bad or out adjustment. You may have to count teeth on the flywheel, I seem to recall reading 180 ring gear teeth for one and maybe 200 on another??? This would suggest that there would also be a different cut on the pinion gear teeth.

Hope there is something in the above that will be helpful.

(edit)
I should add that making a temp starter wire. 12 gage is ok, crimp a female spade lug on one end and remove the factory connector, replace with your jumper, touch to the positive battery terminal and the car _will_ crank if the starter is good. If you turn the key to start the fuel pump will prime but the engine will not crank, release to on and then use the temporary starter hot wire it should start.

Let us know what happens.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[dave99gst]

you can also remove the starter and test it out of the car -
If you do end up getting a new starter be sure its the right one for your car-
Manual and a/t use differant starters, all tho' they look the same the nose cone is 2 differant depths.

 

[GTM]

My starter should be fine, I bought it BNIB from AutoZone. How do you jump your starter again? I'm not quite positive how to do it.

You can buy a ready made starter jumper but since you won't use if very often I suggest you just make something.

In it's simplest form the female spade crimped onto a piece of 12 gage wire long enough to reach the battery Positive post. Pull the solenoid wire off the terminal and replace with your hot wire. This will take a bit of doing for you can hardly see it much less get your arm in there.

A more sophisticated home made tool is using a dash mount "horn button" (momentary switch) attach a small battery allegator clip found at most hardward stores, ($1.50) the other end will got to the button switch ($3-$8). Another wire from the switch to the starter will finish the job. You can use 12 gage lamp chord by buying a 6' extension chord from the 99¢ store and cut the plugs off. It's more flexable than buying automotive spool wire and you can seperate the wire as much as you want for the switch and the other ends. Wrap the switch connections with electrical tape for one will be hot and can short to body.

Harbor Freight has a ready made one for under $10, Snap On will set you back maybe $25. This makes doing compression checks and other tasks a lot more reliable but not for setting cam timing which should always be done by hand. They are probably less popular with mechanics with front wheel drive transverse engines because of the access to the starter and a hot engine.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[howdeyjake]

GTM- Did you read my other posts?? Do you have any clue about what I was saying about the S-Clip?? And I will try one of those methods hopefully tommrrow. Thanks for the help of just seeing if my starter actually works.

Jake

 

[GTM]

GTM- Did you read my other posts?? Do you have any clue about what I was saying about the S-Clip?? And I will try one of those methods hopefully tommrrow. Thanks for the help of just seeing if my starter actually works.

Jake

Post #28 yes? I don't have wiring schematic for your car, just got url for 1G and the black w/yellow trace (BY(black with yellow trace)) appears to go to the solenoid terminal from the starter relay. The clutch switch and anti-theft are part of this circuit, I just noticed a "sub fusible link" as part of this circuit.

I don't know why you would have 2 BY unless there were provisions for the Auto transmission. Essentially the BY has to end up at the startter solenoid spade terminal.

Here is url:
http://simon.chi.il.us/~steve/Auto/DSM/1GDSMWiring.html

I am still concerned about the slow cranking which was/is there with both starters. If the car used the long nose starter I don't think it's possible to even get this to mount though don't quote me on this for I'm not a DSM expert. I'm more inclined to question the flywheel ring gear distance to the max travel of the pinion gear is too little and it is bottoming out against the end of that gear.

Still you can use the hot wire to start and drive the car while you get it sorted out IF the starter is good and doesn't have an adjustment problem. This might get mom off your back but in the real world these are not the ideal student car because they are a very high maintenance item.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[howdeyjake]

Well I will have to try and do that tommrrow to see if it is even working. In the meant time, does what I was describing about the S-Clip wire sound right?? Idk where the relay comes in.

Jake

 

[GTM]

Well I will have to try and do that tommrrow to see if it is even working. In the meant time, does what I was describing about the S-Clip wire sound right?? Idk where the relay comes in.

Jake

In short NO, that does not sound right that they should both be BY with one going to ground. Did one have have a large eyelet and the other the female spade connector??? I can only guess if you had a large eyelet this _may_ have been connected to the B+ stud (+battery cable) at the starter solenoid. Take that off ground and then try with only the spade connected.

Have you disconnected both BY and then had someone hold the key in crank mode and tested for 12v at the spade connector??? How about the other BY?? I can't see the diagram that well but you will see 2 BY split from the key start mode.

You could have made the starter hot wire and done the test I've suggested. I'm not there but spending more time writing than this deserves. You just have to roll up your sleeves and pedal backwards rather than keep guessing.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[howdeyjake]

I'm trying to make sense of all of this. To hot wire the car, I need to run a wire off the positive post, then touch it to the S-Terminal?? And also, what is a BY?? Also, what were you saying about the black with yellow striped wire?? That is a ground right? Let me go take some pics of everything, because I hate leaving you guys short handed on information.

Edit-What is this I read in the "Before You Reply" thing? You can give someone pos. reputation points?? How can I do that, you guys deserve some.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

When you look to see if someone is either on or offline, you will also see a little symbol to the right. To give reputuation points you find the post that was helpful, then click on that little symbol in that post then a new screen will pop up where you can put some sort of comment, as to how you were helped.

 

[howdeyjake]

Ok, here we go--
[Too big.]

All three wires are coming off the grouping of wires coming from the battery. I am right now going to try and hot wire my starter.

 

[GTM]

Hopefully you will attach to the s-clip (solenoid terminal (clip?) FIRST and then the battery. Otherwise you will have a HOT wire running rampant just looking for a place to short on the body or engine. You can buy insulated female spade crimp connectors which makes the most sense but they are not always available. I just skin the bare end and touch to the positive battery terminal after making the solenoid connection, it won't bother anything running loose once the car is started.

BTW.......BY = Black Yellow (could be black with yellow trace).

No no no, the BY is NOT ground, it is going to be hot (12v/ battery voltage + when you turn the key to start. Connecting to ground will burn _something_ fuse, fusable link, relay, wires, ignition switch, car. Buy a manual and read it!!!

It would be better if your pictures are in focus and a bit smaller but you are in the right location, I just can't grasp what you had done with the other BY wire you had found. That may be a spare that was for an automatic transmission neutral safety switch which prevents you from starting in gear.

It is critical to observe what you take apart, if necessary wrap tape and mark what they do or where they connect. TAKE PICTURES BEFORE and not after, saves a lot of time when in doubt.

Keep us posted.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[howdeyjake]

I didn't take my starter out, my buddy did that knows a bunch about cars. The BY wire I THOUGHT was a ground so I have it grounded out to the starter, so I guess it isn't a ground?? So is that the wire that goes to the S-Clip, because it is just fraid at the end, no S-Clip on it. Also, sometimes I post and it doesn't show up so sorry about the delay. I did post that I hotwired my starter and it did startbut it didn't show up. I put a aligator clip thingey on the S-Clip and then ran a wire up tword the battery so I just touch it to the positive post like you said. So I DID get my car started by hotwireing it. I guess that means I have a bad starter relay or a ignition switch?? I will test the ignition switch tomorrow. And about the pics, it is just about impossible to get anything better than what you see, there is WAY too many hoses and linkage cables in the way to get my camera close to the starter so sorry bout that. Anyways LMK if this post means anything, I am at work and in a hurry to type this.


Jake


Edit: I just read over your posts knowing what BY ment and it all makes sense now. There is 3 wires coming off. One is the Positive eyelet wire going to the B-Terminal. The other is a S-Clip going to the S-Clip thing, and the third is a black and yellow one with a fraid end that I grounded out. Does that sound right, because from what your saying, it doesn't seem like it is correct.

 

[GTM]

I didn't take my starter, my buddy did. The BY wire I THOUGHT was a ground so I have it grounded out to the starter, so I guess it isn't a ground??

Sometimes I post and it doesn't show up so sorry about the delay. I did post that I hotwired my starter and it did startbut it didn't show up. I put a aligator clip thingey on the S-Clip and then ran a wire up tword the battery so I just touch it to the positive post like you said. So I DID get my car started by hotwireing it. I guess that means I have a bad starter relay or a ignition switch?? I will test the ignition switch tomorrow. LMK if this post means anything, I am at work and in a hurry to type this.

Jake

There you go, conditional branching logic prevails. OKAY!!! Now you know you _can_ make it start on command. Not as bad as having get out and insert the old crank handle so we have jumped 30 years ahead.

Yes there have been problems with the board for several days but we have been told they are fixed and you will receive email notification when someone posts to your thread if you have enabled this in your profile.

There are NO BY wires that go to ground anywhere on your car. Absolute.

Now you have done it, you can see all I asked would have taken 5 minutes and mom would be impressed. The next sequence will take some more time and I can't do it for you, hopefully you will have answers in less than 30 minutes. If your alarm works then in all probability it will be the starter relay.

Hopefully you did not burn somethin up, You can now progress with either plugging the solenoid wire BY back on and see if it starts when you have removed the other BY wires from contacting any ground. Remember you have a clutch pedal switch which will prevent the car from cranking so this must pass 12v when the key is in start and the pedal pressed. There are fuses and sub fusable link to protect some of this, so it's just a matter of finding them. With the key in start and the start relay removed you should have 2 terminals hot, if not then the problem is between the key and the relay. After the relay it goes to the clutch switch and the Anti-theft relay and the control unit.



Keep us posted, do not loose your focus and start jumping all around, be logical and methodical.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[howdeyjake]

I FINALY GOT IT!!! I was outside working on my car when the guy that put the starter in for me dropped by. He asked what I was doing and I said still trying to get the starter fixed. He points the BY wire out as soon as he got under the hood telling me he unconnected it and completly forgot about it. Connected it, and boom my car started. Thank you guys soooo much for helping me out. Even when I was a lazy idiot you kept helping me. Thanks a bunch and I will giving props to everyone that posted!!

Thanks for the last time,
Jake