HUGE increase in boost after FP 17PSI actuator install...is this safe??

[Rice Over Wheat]

Do you have the money to blow on a road trip to Seattle? Then you can blow some more to have me tune your car. I'll even warranty it!

I wish I could do most of my work myself like you guys do but I'm too busy with grad school right now. Plus no garage, few tools. And my car is my only ride so what I can't afford is losing it due to my own lack of expertise. If you were local I'd pay you though!

 

[donmagicjuan]

I'll be local in about a year and a half if you still need help! I really need to be self-employed. . .

 

[oldman]

Bruce:

I do have a small leak at the TB shaft, but would that really make me drop from 22-15psi starting at 4500RPM?

I really thought it would have been from the direct boost source blowing open the weak wastegate.

Are you saying you were able to hold 22 psi when tapping the manifold pressure but now (tapping the compressor) you're hitting 22psi then it drops off to 15, or you're hitting 22psi before and 15psi after without re-adjusting your mbc?

I wasn't offended.

Good, I was only trying to save your motor.

 

[Ricardo]

Kevin, I am glad you think that way, you're a smart guy and I totally agree with your position. Sure you can do all the mods and perform all the work on your car, everyone in here can, but to what point is that really worth it?

I mean, I got to work and go to school and I drive my car to both places. I used to think it was fun to unbolt, get my hands dirty and all that stuff, but nowadays even if I know how to do it, if it includes some sort of hard labor, I take it to my mechanic. Why? Because he can do it faster, he's done it before and if he screws up, he's gonna have to pay for it-- not me.

Most of the mechanic wise guys learn from trial and error. It is hard to hear from someone who hasn't broken a transmission or an engine before.

The only thing is that you must have a trustful mechanic and arrange the details beforehand so that surprises don't go along. This, however, is a life lesson as most things go this way. Most of the time I watch or even help with with some work.

As for the injectors, 550cc would've been fine as the injector duty cycle can reach up to 120% if I am not mistaken. This should be good for the t-28, of course not with the SMIC as the hot air requires more fuel to cool down/prevent detonation.

660cc is good too, but remember the further you go from stock items, the less the car will behave like stock (very smart comment, ). In this case, larger injectors will make the car run richer, increasing gas consumption. Make sure you have it well tuned to minimize side effects and optimize performance.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Yeah, I'm going to see how it goes and what numbers I can push after a good tune. What's nice now is all I need is an intercooler solution and I'll be straight until a turbo upgrade perhaps a couple years from now.

I'm woefully aware of that crappy stock ic, shamefully small as it is. However, since I cannot have this car in non-driveable condition beyond half a day, I'm thinking seriously about the Dejon super smic...they say it's good to 400whp and its $400. And it is much bigger than that stocker. $400 isn't much, I can install it myself, and I dont need to do any major pipe routing, cutting, etc. Thing is, I really want to do the cold air intake to the old sidemount location...oh well, can't have it all. Just a stop-gap measure.

Later when I do a turbo upgrade then I'll do the fmic at the same time I think.

Oh and tomorrow I'm finding a muffler shop to fab me a 15 inch section of pipe to fix that last bend before the muffler. I have no idea why it goes from 3" to 2.5" there...wtf.

 

[oldman]

I can install it myself.

Quick, everyone take cover.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

What is the maximum airflow of the T28? I was under the impression that it fell between the 14b (30 lbs) and regular 16Gs (~38 psi). That's one of the very few turbos I never ran on my car. At any rate, with pump gas at 11:1 and base pressure of 43 psi 450s will support 33 lbs/min. 2g loggers can record this value, if you have one.

The T28 uses the same T25 hotside IIRC, which means that the turbine housing pressures are going to be high causing the WG flapper to blow open. Odds are that all along the MBC was set for that 25 psi but it was blowing open at less than that. With the stronger actuator the flapper can remain shut at higher pressures. Changing the WG spring should not change boost pressure with a ball and spring type boost controller, since the boost pressure will be equal to the amount of pressure required to push the ball off the seat. A bleeder or duty cycle type boost controller will be affected however.

Just turn the boost down with the MBC if you haven't decided to do this already. Going to a dyno to turn the boost down is ridiculous.

Edit> Missed page two somehow Injectors can only go to 100%. At 100% (less depending on dead/saturation time at the current battery voltage) they are wide open and don't close. Loggers can read over 100% since the ECU will make the effort regardless, but flow will not increase. At 105% IDC for example, you will be ~5% leaner than your target AFR. For people that tune extra rich, this isn't always a bad thing. In fact many people run quite fast at over 100% IDC because they are too ####y to lean the car out, but the injector does it for them and it achieves the same end.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Quick, everyone take cover.

Sadly, there is much truth to this. But in this case hopefully it isn't much more than a plumbing job and hanging a picture.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

95GSXracer, thanks for the info. I plan on going to an aftermarket tuner shop to install my injectors and tune on a dyno at the same time. I'm not skilled enough to do either myself and can't risk my car to learn right now.

I believe the ported AGP Big T28 flows 550 cfm, though I have to find the site for that number for you. Maybe it was on their site. Anyway, supposedly it flows close to or the same as a typical 16G. Makes sense to me as the numbers are similar. People tell me the T28 can be good to 380whp.

What you explained about the actuator makes sense. I was thinking along the same lines but without the technical stuff you mentioned. I figured that my stock actuator was a bit worn, and since factory rated at 11psi, was probably at 10 psi or so. My mbc was dialed up on my previous tune to give me 18 psi. That's +7psi. Changing the actuator to 17 psi, that is +6 from stock, or maybe +7 from my worn actuator. Starting from that baseline and +7 on the mbc, and you have 25 psi, where I am now.

I have 660s coming tomorrow so I should be good on flow for the T28.

Edit: From AGPturbo.com re: Big T28: http://www.agpturbo.com/product.php?productid=16217&cat=264&page=1

We all know that the factory T25 (T too Small) turbocharger just does not perform to the standards that you expect. This upgrade is the turbo that Mitsubishi should have used in the first place as the factory turbocharger for the 2G DSMs. The upgrade looks completely stock from the outside, however it's not to be confused with the factory T25. The internals use a high flowing turbine stage complimenting an extremely efficient TB03 compressor stage rated at 36lbs/min. No installation kit is necessary as it mounts to your car exactly like the stock T25, same oil lines, same water lines, and same compressor inlet and outlet.

-36 lbs/min
-supports 360bhp
-100% bolt on for 2G, no install kit necessary

Apparently the weakness of this turbo solution is the re-use of the stock actuator.

 

[daren_p]

Rice over wheat, while you can get away with a SMIC I would strongly suggest just getting a FMIC, the gains are defently noticeable. As for your boost, you know now not to boost over 15 till you get the injectors but once you get the injectors you still probably want to keep the boost ~18 psi max. Reason being you don't have a logger & that stock SMIC won't cool the intake charge enough at the higher boost levels. I would recommend getting a logger asap as your motor could/will depend on it. I would imagine you have already seen pretty big amounts of knock with the stock fuel & SMIC at 25 psi. For reference with my evoIII at 18 psi (which won't heat up the air as much as the t28) on a HRC SMIC I would still see knock sometimes by the time I got to 3rd or 4th & I always run Ultra 94. Once I switched to the FMIC I gained a few lb/min in airflow & have run 22-23 psi on pump with no knock.

 

[zippyshoe]

What is the maximum airflow of the T28? I was under the impression that it fell between the 14b (30 lbs) and regular 16Gs (~38 psi). That's one of the very few turbos I never ran on my car. At any rate, with pump gas at 11:1 and base pressure of 43 psi 450s will support 33 lbs/min. 2g loggers can record this value, if you have one.

The T28 uses the same T25 hotside IIRC, which means that the turbine housing pressures are going to be high causing the WG flapper to blow open. Odds are that all along the MBC was set for that 25 psi but it was blowing open at less than that. With the stronger actuator the flapper can remain shut at higher pressures. Changing the WG spring should not change boost pressure with a ball and spring type boost controller, since the boost pressure will be equal to the amount of pressure required to push the ball off the seat. A bleeder or duty cycle type boost controller will be affected however.

Just turn the boost down with the MBC if you haven't decided to do this already. Going to a dyno to turn the boost down is ridiculous.

Edit> Missed page two somehow Injectors can only go to 100%. At 100% (less depending on dead/saturation time at the current battery voltage) they are wide open and don't close. Loggers can read over 100% since the ECU will make the effort regardless, but flow will not increase. At 105% IDC for example, you will be ~5% leaner than your target AFR. For people that tune extra rich, this isn't always a bad thing. In fact many people run quite fast at over 100% IDC because they are too ####y to lean the car out, but the injector does it for them and it achieves the same end.

95GSXracer - I believe the FP Big28/AGP Big28 is rated at 36 lb/min (or roughly 360 hp at the crank).

From what I hear, it is fairly common for the wastegate actuator that comes with the Big28 to blow open under high boost conditions. The 17psi actuator seems to be a very popular upgrade for the Big28 to prevent this.

 

[donmagicjuan]

Changing the WG spring should not change boost pressure with a ball and spring type boost controller, since the boost pressure will be equal to the amount of pressure required to push the ball off the seat.

I believe this is a common misconception. There was a painfully long discussion about this a while ago in this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236500&highlight=explanation+of+MBC

I think post #40 does the best to support my case. It would seem in this case the evidence supports the idea as well.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Rice over wheat, while you can get away with a SMIC I would strongly suggest just getting a FMIC, the gains are defently noticeable. As for your boost, you know now not to boost over 15 till you get the injectors but once you get the injectors you still probably want to keep the boost ~18 psi max. Reason being you don't have a logger & that stock SMIC won't cool the intake charge enough at the higher boost levels. I would recommend getting a logger asap as your motor could/will depend on it. I would imagine you have already seen pretty big amounts of knock with the stock fuel & SMIC at 25 psi. For reference with my evoIII at 18 psi (which won't heat up the air as much as the t28) on a HRC SMIC I would still see knock sometimes by the time I got to 3rd or 4th & I always run Ultra 94. Once I switched to the FMIC I gained a few lb/min in airflow & have run 22-23 psi on pump with no knock.

I would if I could, but again I cannot have my car taken apart for large blocks of time. My schedule is too busy for that, and fmic install is too long to do myself and too expensive to pay someone else. I'm not looking for a street beast here, just 300+whp and I'm happy for the next couple years.

Also, I have no idea what knock feels/looks like. I dont have a knock sensor so my SAFC can't display that. I don't think a logger would do me any good since my tuning knowledge is so limited and I dont have the time to learn.

There's an import tuning shop that's really popular in Orlando called Central Florida Turbo, and its like 2 miles from me. I have an appt on thurs to install my injectors and tune my car. They're pretty experienced so I'll have them set my car at whatever psi I can safely run at.

 

[daren_p]

I would if I could, but again I cannot have my car taken apart for large blocks of time. My schedule is too busy for that, and fmic install is too long to do myself and too expensive to pay someone else. I'm not looking for a street beast here, just 300+whp and I'm happy for the next couple years.

Also, I have no idea what knock feels/looks like. I dont have a knock sensor so my SAFC can't display that. I don't think a logger would do me any good since my tuning knowledge is so limited and I dont have the time to learn.

There's an import tuning shop that's really popular in Orlando called Central Florida Turbo, and its like 2 miles from me. I have an appt on thurs to install my injectors and tune my car. They're pretty experienced so I'll have them set my car at whatever psi I can safely run at.

A fmic install really isn't a "huge" install, you could easily have it done in a day or two on the weekend & that is with a short route setup, such as mine. As for a knock sensor, yes you have one from factory, but it won't read properly with the safc, you need a logger to read it. The knock sensor does exactly what it sounds like, it senses knock be it mechanical, real (from detonation) or phamton. If knock is sensed it reduces your timing to keep the knock under control & I believe the BCS will reduce your boost if knock gets high enough but pretty much everyone takes the BCS out of the "loop" when they install a boost controller. What does knock feel like?, well you can't really feel or hear it & if it does get loud enough for you to hear, you have big problems. If you have enough knock you could notice a decrease in performance from alot of timing being pulled. Only way to know if you knocking or not is to get a logger. You don't have to be a tunning expert to use a logger, its a good tool for diagnostics and will let you know exactly what is going on with your motor, even if you don't want to try and adjust the SAFC yourself. Just because a company tunes the car to a certain air/fuel ratio that should be safe on a dyno doesn't mean that your aren't causing damage to your motor, there are many factors other then just air/fuel ratio that come into play. What happens when you get enough knock, well you can blow a head gasket or even worse a motor. With all the mods you are doing to your car, you are in the dark as to whats going on with the motor, defently not a good idea.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

If I had known the 17psi actuator would snowball into all these new expenses, I'd have never done it.

But, now it is too late. I went to Garrett's site and read those nice FAQs to refresh my basic knowledge on these issues I'm facing. You've all got me really concerned about detonation now, so here's what I've decided to do...

I'm cancelling my tune on thurs. Instead I will have them just do the injectors for me for $50. I'm going to turn my mbc all the way down so I'm only at 17psi off the actuator. With the 660s I should be rich enough to run untuned and my SAFC zero correction.

I've spent the last 3 hours poring over the huge ebay fmic thread. Without a doubt, that XS-Power fmic kit appears to be the greatest bang for the buck for my setup, a member already made an awesome How-to for it, and it has dyno/street proven results and quality. Vast majority consensus says it kicks ass. Therefore, there is no reason to spend $400 on a dejon smic when these fmic are $290 shipped. My 1G bov will bolt right onto the flange, and all I need is a pipe to make the last bend...have to read more and figure out if it's a j pipe or 180 deg that I need... I think even I can install this kit.

Then I will have the car re-tuned. How does that sound?

 

[zippyshoe]

I would advise against installing those 660cc injectors with your car untuned - you will be running pig-rich if your car even runs at all. If you really want to stick with the 17psi actuator and can't afford the expense/time to tune your car for those injectors, you may have to stick with the factory injectors for now and use your foot as your boost controller (a.k.a. stay out of boost). Watch your boost gauge carefully and stay out of boost as much as possible.

 

[oldman]

I would either use the money you saved from the tuning session, purchase a logger and learn to tune it yourself, or re-install the stock actuator, turn boost down to 15psi and run the stock 450s until you're ready. If money really isn't an issue, Dsmlink would make tuning much easier.

 

[zippyshoe]

Yeah, with DSMLink, getting a basic tune for larger-than-stock injectors is very simple - there are only two parameters to adjust to get a basic tune. In fact, when you order DSMLink, you specify what injectors you will use to set the default values - your car would probably be at least driveable with DSMLink right out of the box without any tuning adjustments needed. Also, you could then keep your eyes on the road instead of on the boost gauge.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Hm, ok I will think about that regarding the logger or dsmlink. I ordered the fmic. I'll cancel my tuning appt, hold off on the 660s until I have the fmic, and just run 17 psi on the 450s without safc correction. After all, I was running 15 psi with -5% on my last tune and have reset my safc to 0's. So that should be about right while I wait for my fmic.

I'm staying off the gas right now anyway. I don't boost over 10 by staying off the throttle.

 

[siceclipse]

as for the trouble i was having, its all gone

I spoke with Bruce (Oldman) and we went over all possiblities one by one.

It turned out to be a HUGE boost leak comming from my compressor outley nipple.
The boost controller hose was too big to tightly clamp down on it.

After switching back to the BOV to make a quick fix, i immediately got my throttle responce back and with the 17lb actuator im now boosting 20psi all the way to redline rock solid.

Thanks oldman!

Check for boost leaks everyone!

 

[oldman]

No problem Mike, BOOST LEAK TEST!!

 

[donmagicjuan]

Great, as if Bruce needed anymore ammo. Good job, Mike!

 

[siceclipse]

i know i know!

I've read so many of his past post and i swore he would never catch me with that "do a boost leak test" crap and now here i am giving praise.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Did I say even I can install the XS Power fmic? After spending 5 hours reading that huge thread I'm seriously wondering if I should issue my car last rites before I start it. It took days for some of the most experienced people to install. And looks like I have the toughest combination to work with...a/t, 2Ga, T28. Figures.

Edit: nm, I decided to mount the ic myself, then have Central Florida Turbo lay the pipe for me... that sounds kinky. And I bypassed the mbc, so I'm just on the actuator and no safc correction, so I think I'm safe for the time being. It holds exactly 17psi by itself...well how about that.

 

[siceclipse]

you better have a WEEKEND set aside for this.

I bought a FMIC from ExtremeIntercoolers thats sort of made for my car.
It still took me and my very experienced friend 7 hrs to do EVERYTHING
the most time consuming part was the cutting and fitting
also, you will have to shave some of your fan shroud off if using a tightly bent u-pipe off the T-28