How can I tell what tranny I have? 90 or 91+??

[tsi1991awd]

I just bought a 1990 Talon TSi AWD...I am tryiing to figure out whether it is a 90 tranny or 91+ tranny. Supposedly it was rebuilt, but it shifts like shit. Could be clutch or whatever I dont know.

IS there a way I can tell whether it is a 90 or 91+ besides the bracket that the shift cables attach to? I am wondering if I need new shift cables or what, which is why I am trying to find out.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Shouldn't matter with the year.

What is the transmission doing?

 

[cjridert1]

The one gear selector is different (shorter).

Full writeup here

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

The one gear selector is different (shorter).

Full writeup here

Ah! Wasn't aware of that. That's valuable to me as well. Lol.


None-the-less. A little detail on what's going on could help us help you determine the problem.

 

[cjridert1]

OP - did you set up your cable lengths nice at the shifter base? If you have a 91+ shift base on a 90 trans, the bottom of the shifter lever wont come even close to having those rubber bumpers touch: i.e. the throw will be shorter if you have a 91+ base on a 90 trans; works fine or you can switch bases to get the regular throw length back.

 

[tsi1991awd]

Well since I bought the car, it was hard/notchy to shift into all the gears. Taking a bit of force. Not sure what happened yesterday but everything ####ed up.

The car gears got all messed up when I put them into gear...the car died because the alternator was bad and the battery drained. Had to keep jumping the car to get it to stay running. But thats not the point.

The car was stuck in 3rd gear while the shifter in the car was in neutral....yes it was in neutral and I could move it side/side like normal. It would go into 3rd and 4th gear just fine but wouldnt go into any other gear unless oyou forced it into gear. This was with the car OFF even.

I took the cables off of the tranny and had my wife shift through all the gears...the cables moved freely with no problems...but maybe they were kinked when they were connected to the tranny, I dont know.

I found the transmission levers were stuck in 3rd gear so I put them into the neutral position. After that I put the shift cables back onto the levers and then had my wife go through all the gears...the brackets were moving and whatever but I dont think it fully popped into the gears.

With the car running, I could go through some gears but 2nd gear wass grinding horribly. 3rd and 4th went in just fine. I had the car towed home and changed the alternator (thankfully Autozone has a lifetime warranty and I bought the alt for my previous DSM there) Charged the battery. Havent started the car yet though.

I bled the clutch...it has an ACT 2600 and the pedal was very hard. It engaged pretty much as soon as the pedal left the floor. I installed a speed bleeder and bled the hell out of the clutch. Now it is soft. The pedal has some play up top where there is hardly any pressure then about half way, theres pressure.

I also think maybe the master and slave are ####ed up because when I tried adjusting the clutch rod, the slave cylindrer can be pushed in at all times. It is supposed to get to the point where you adjust the rod out to a certain point and it wont allow the slave cylinder to be pushed in. Well, that isnt the case...so maybe they are leaking or something...not sure.

Also, the car is a 1990...built in July of 89. I looked at the shifter in the car and it is a 1990 shifter for sure. The tranny is what I was trying to figure out...not sure if it is the 90 or 91+...and the cables would need to be swapped if it is 90 cables on the 91+ tranny.

Like I was saying though, since I first drove the car when I picked it up, it was real notchy/hard to get into the gears....but now it is even harder. Seems like it almost has to be forced into gear.

And the 2nd grinds bad like I am not even pushing in the clutch...that type of grind. This is sitting in one spot and shifting...this isnt driving around and shifting but I assume it would be the same.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Yup. Sounds like clutch drag to me. It's not disengaging all of the way and it's causing certain gears to grind. I've had the same issue, and from the sounds of it, 2nd is the first one to start grinding.

Replace the Slave cylinder first as it's cheaper. Rebleed.

Check underneath the dash. There is a bolt. Make sure the pedal is up all of the way and crank down on that bolt if it's loose. Go ahead and bleed the Slave Cylinder. Be sure when you do, to push IN on the pushrod to compress the pocket of air from the back of the slave cylinder, otherwise it will not bleed correctly.

 

[tsi1991awd]

When I was test driving it or whatever, 3rd and sometimes 4th kept grinding (while driving) even though I pushed the cluctch all the way in. Now 2nd is doing it when the car isnt driving.

I will probably replace both cylinders and bleed that way. What bolt were you talking about to make sure it is tight?

Also, in my old DSM, the gears could be shifted through with the car off and without pushing the clutch...they would go into gear just fine. This one even with the clutch in or out and car off, it is hard to get into gear....what would be the cause of THAT?

Also want to mention the whole thing with the car being stuck in 3rd gear yesterday...it seemed like when it was first acting up, the car was in 3rd but it didnt move anywhere. As if I was in neutral...I thought the gear had completely blew out or something. But now it seems like something either happened with the cables or the tranny to where it switched the gears around.....like I said previously, the shifter was in neutral and the shifter moved left/right like it was in neutral yet it was stuck in 3rd gear. So....what happened there?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

When I was test driving it or whatever, 3rd and sometimes 4th kept grinding (while driving) even though I pushed the cluctch all the way in. Now 2nd is doing it when the car isnt driving.

I will probably replace both cylinders and bleed that way. What bolt were you talking about to make sure it is tight?

Also, in my old DSM, the gears could be shifted through with the car off and without pushing the clutch...they would go into gear just fine. This one even with the clutch in or out and car off, it is hard to get into gear....what would be the cause of THAT?

Also want to mention the whole thing with the car being stuck in 3rd gear yesterday...it seemed like when it was first acting up, the car was in 3rd but it didnt move anywhere. As if I was in neutral...I thought the gear had completely blew out or something. But now it seems like something either happened with the cables or the tranny to where it switched the gears around.....like I said previously, the shifter was in neutral and the shifter moved left/right like it was in neutral yet it was stuck in 3rd gear. So....what happened there?

Yes, it sounds strange, but that's exactly what I went through. The clutch isn't fully disengaging because even with the clutch pedal to the floor, you aren't even getting 75% of the travel from the Slave. It's tight all the way to the floor when it STARTS getting tight a few inches into pushing on the pedal I take it?

As for the the being stuck in 3rd. I also had the issue. All related, strangely. Get in the car with it off, Shove down on the clutch, and it should pop out of 3rd gear.

If I were like most others, I'd tell you the synchros are shot, but I'm looking out for ya' and going with what I know and what I experienced. it will save you money as well if it is this simple issue.

The bolt is VERY obvious. It's the ONLY bolt at the end of the pedal assembly. Trust me, you'll notice it. When you press in on the clutch, it may turn it at the end.

 

[cjridert1]

Have you verified middle position of the shift fork at the bell housing slot?
Does it have good travel distance when your wife pushes the clutch in?
How many spacers do you have under your pivot ball?
Dialed in your clutch at the petal base for max travel?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Sorry if I was unclear....the car is out of gear now. it is in neutral and the cables/tranny shifts into the gears it is supposed to.

What I was saying earlier was when all of this first started happening, the trans was stuck in 3rd gear even though the shifter in the car was in the neutral position and moved left/right freely.

Now it is just hard to get into the gears whether the car is off or on. Like I have to force it into gear or something.

Have you verified middle position of the shift fork at the bell housing slot?
Does it have good travel distance when your wife pushes the clutch in?
How many spacers do you have under your pivot ball?
Dialed in your clutch at the petal base for max travel?

The shift fork you are referring to is the clutch fork that the slave rod connects to, right? Where you can see the end of the fork and there is a rubber boot there in the housing?

If so, I did not see what is going on with it...I bled the clutch last night with the speed bleeder and after that went to bed since I had been messing with it all day.

As for the pivot ball spacers, I do not know.The transmission is supposedly rebuilt with double synchro 1st and 2nd....I havent taken the tranny out.

Also, I tried adjusting the rod at the pedal but like I stated earlier...I cant get an accurate adjustment because the slave cylinder pushes in still even with the rod adjusted all the way out. There should be a point where I am not able to push the slave cylinder in...and that is non-existant no matter where the rod is at. SO that is what led me to think the slave and/or master is toast.

 

[cjridert1]

Yea, clutch fork, my bad. It should be in the middle of that rubber boot if the clutch is not being pressed, sorry for misnomer. Decent motion when your wife pushes in?
Do you have any oil bleeding from the slave/master cylinder?

 

[donniekak]

Act clutches require more clutch fork movement for complete disengaugement. Adjust the clutch pedal under the dash so that the engaugement point isn't right off the floor.

 

[tsi1991awd]

I spoke with the guy who sold the car to me. He said it is a 91 tranny and the transfer case was swapped with a rebuilt one, which I assume is a 91+ as well since the two have different spline count...dunno.

But regardless, he said the cables were switched out as well because he had to wait a month to get them so that answers that question.

Now as far as adjusting the clutch pedal to where it doesnt engage right off the floor...how is that done? The proper adjustment procedure that I am aware of is you turn the rod out, toward the firewall, push the slave cylinder in...if it pushes in, adjust more until you cant push the cylinder in. Then adjust the rod back 1/4 turn at a time until you can push the slave back in. Once you can push the slave, the clutch is set properly.

So how are you saying adjust the rod so it doesnt engage right off the floor...how do I do that?

Also, the slave was covered with oil because the oil pan had shitty cheap gasket maker on it that wasnt compatible with oil...so it is leaking from pretty much the entire oil pan where the pan meets the block. sucks. Gotta get that fixed and no more oil leak will be present.

As far as the master, I think the boot was a little wet looking but I didnt see any drips or anything on the carpet or metal...didnt take the boot off either

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Hm...I'd still suggest adjusting the shifter cables and bleed the slave the way I described above WITH your method of adjusting the master cylinder.

Keep in mind that you can also unscrew the lines from the master cylinder, press your fingers against the holes. Have someone SLOWLY press in on the clutch, and make sure that the master cylinder is bled correctly

 

[tsi1991awd]

I have read before on vfaq on adjusting the cables...you do it at the shifter itself. But how do I know when it is adjusted properly?

Also, I think if I buy another slave and master, I can rule those out and know that say, if I need a new clutch and/or components, then I wont have to change those out

Edit to add:
I took the cables off of the shifter base and found that they were actually not adjusted right. When I centered the shift lever left/right, the left cable did not reach the peg. I cracked the jam nuts and adjusted the cable out to where it fit without being stretched. Did the same with the right side cable for the up/down adjustment...the cable was too short to reach the peg.

After I adjusted both cables, I put them back on and proceeded to shift through all the gears....and to my amazement, they all went in smooth as butter. No forcing it into gear or anything. So now all I have to do is bleed the clutch again and I will probably buy a new slave and master to be safe....but hopefully bleeding the clutch will work for the time being.

We will see what happens once the bleeding is complete and the car is running. If it doesn't shift while running then we have a problem, but it would most likely be a clutch engagement issue, right? Seeing as how it shifts just fine into gear with the car off?