Help find the oil leak! (LOTS of pics)

[Artago]

Original Post: 08-17-2013
This motor has been fully rebuilt about 30,000 miles ago.

Anyone know where I should be looking for this nasty leak?

Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/1126...ms/5913255376244804609?authkey=CKuTsJ_LsLbRCw

Update: 08-19-2013

Some people have noted that there are no shots of the cam gear area. Since it was dry compared to everything else I didn't bother. However, here are the pics anyway.

Part 2: https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5913733796139722737?authkey=CKTJnpannbGGAw

I sealed the valve cover myself. I'm reasonably sure it's not leaking. I will triple check it and confirm.

Update: 08-29-2013

I've taken apart the front case. Looks like the gasket was not sealing properly. Maybe the case wasn't torqued down enough?

The groove on the crank shaft has me a bit worried. Looks like the crank seal may have been leaking as well.

Part 3: https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5917444745173082097?authkey=CNi4yLznnPiXCg

 

[Twinturbo120]

This motor has been fully rebuilt about 30,000 miles ago.

Anyone know where I should be looking for this nasty leak?

Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/1126...ms/5913255376244804609?authkey=CKuTsJ_LsLbRCw

My best guess would the the plug where the balance shaft sprocket use to be. Clean it up and run it for a little while. If a puddle forms there again, you already know its the plug.

EDIT: Just noticed the engine is not in the car -.- so running it is out of the question

 

[Miasma]

Usually I would agree it might be the balance shaft plug, but in the images he showed there is to much oil above the plug, meaning it must be coming from somewhere near the top.

 

[Twinturbo120]

Usually I would agree it might be the balance shaft plug, but in the images he showed there is to much oil above the plug, meaning it must be coming from somewhere near the top.

Funny you mention that, with all the pictures, their isn't a single one near the cams

 

[Miasma]

Unless a gasket was missed, I don't see a problem with the block front case. I'd look up top near the head.

 

[Artago]

My best guess would the the plug where the balance shaft sprocket use to be. Clean it up and run it for a little while. If a puddle forms there again, you already know its the plug.

EDIT: Just noticed the engine is not in the car -.- so running it is out of the question

Unfortunately. I'll check the balance shaft sprocket. Snap some more pics.

Usually I would agree it might be the balance shaft plug, but in the images he showed there is to much oil above the plug, meaning it must be coming from somewhere near the top.

Top was dry. I didn't bother, but I'll double check.

Funny you mention that, with all the pictures, their isn't a single one near the cams

It was dry. Will confirm.

Unless a gasket was missed, I don't see a problem with the block front case. I'd look up top near the head.

I'll check. More pics coming.

Thanks all. Please check back later for more pics.

 

[Joethefallen23]

Cam seals or VC.

 

[Talon7038]

Its the timing tensioner bolts they go into an oil valley. 7bolts are notorious for it. It took me a while to figure it out on one of mine. It would throw oil everywere even the bottom of the hood bc it drips on belt and flings it.you can pull them out and put rtv on them.hope this helps.

 

[StarFawkes]

Cam seals or VC.

Cam seals.

 

[TallestHERETIC]

I, too, believe it to be the cam seals as well.

I changed out my oil cap thinking it would be the obvious source considering it did look busted up and there was lots of oil leaking around it. There was much less oil leaking after a few drives but now the oil has like a "spatter" pattern type of look to it near the timing belt. Sure enough, The cam seals were going bad.

 

[Artago]

Cam seals or VC.

See pics of cam gear area here: https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5913733796139722737?authkey=CKTJnpannbGGAw

Doesn't look like it's coming from there. What do you think?

Its the timing tensioner bolts they go into an oil valley. 7bolts are notorious for it. It took me a while to figure it out on one of mine. It would throw oil everywere even the bottom of the hood bc it drips on belt and flings it.you can pull them out and put rtv on them.hope this helps.

It does! How can I confirm this? Do I have to remove the T-belt and remove the tensioner to verify? Thanks for the advice!

Cam seals.

More pics: https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5913733796139722737?authkey=CKTJnpannbGGAw

I, too, believe it to be the cam seals as well.

I changed out my oil cap thinking it would be the obvious source considering it did look busted up and there was lots of oil leaking around it. There was much less oil leaking after a few drives but now the oil has like a "spatter" pattern type of look to it near the timing belt. Sure enough, The cam seals were going bad.

I resealed the VC and cam gears myself and I think they are good. Could be wrong, I will double check. Here's more pics: https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5913733796139722737?authkey=CKTJnpannbGGAw

 

[Talon7038]

yeah just pop out the bottom one first not both at once so not resetting timing and check to see if covered in oil. If it is just rtv it up and put it back in do the same for the top. I went through a month of the same headache before i figured this out.

 

[Sebba]

I hope you didn't slap a whole load of RTV on the valve cover.

 

[Artago]

yeah just pop out the bottom one first not both at once so not resetting timing and check to see if covered in oil. If it is just rtv it up and put it back in do the same for the top. I went through a month of the same headache before i figured this out.

These 2 bolts?

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I hope you didn't slap a whole load of RTV on the valve cover.

It has a fair amount. I tried not to over do it so piece of the RTV don't end up in my valve train.

 

[BogusSVO]

The brass freeze plug that is blocking the front BS.

It looks to be a dimple style and not the cup style.

Since the dimple style disc plug has never sealed well, that would be suspect.

They are supposed to have some sealant around the edges.

The industry went to the cup style some time in the 50's since there has been, always a leak issue.

Pull the front case, spray that area down with some brake clean and blow dry, both sides of that plug.

on the back side of the case fill with RTV. then on the front pack the edge of the plug with RTV. let sit over night to dry. then install.

I also use non hardening permatex gasket maker on all the front case bolts to help prevent leaks.

 

[Sebba]

These 2 bolts?

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It has a fair amount. I tried not to over do it so piece of the RTV don't end up in my valve train.

You DON'T need RTV, that's what the gasket is for, let it do its job.

 

[dsmcurse]

You DON'T need RTV, that's what the gasket is for, let it do its job.

I wouldnt go aginst what BOGUS has to say, I garentee he has forgotten more about this stuff than you'll ever know...

 

[Artago]

I've taken apart the front case. Looks like the gasket was not sealing properly. Maybe the case wasn't torqued down enough?

Pics:
https://plus.google.com/photos/112644794890091871636/albums/5917444745173082097?authkey=CNi4yLznnPiXCg
The groove on the crank shaft has me a bit worried. Looks like the crank seal may have been leaking as well. Is the groove on the crank shaft normal?

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I ordered a new front case (mine had a stripper oil pan thread which I helicoiled) and new gasket. It's in the mail.

I'll need to plug the balance shaft hole with a freeze plug. Any recommendations on what type I need? I know nothing about freeze plugs. What size/type do I need?

Thanks

Follow up question. I was thinking of using the spray on RTV on the front case gasket to help it seal better. I decided to not use the RTV in a tube because it goes on thick and could cause problems.

What do you all think of using the spray on stuff to apply a thin layer to the gasket before sticking it on?

 

[killercolt]

You need to get the correct plug for the bs elimination from Extremepsi or JNZ. This reduce the chance of cracking the front case when you install it. If you insist on using the brass or metal freeze plug, you should consider using JB weld or JB quick to help seal it. I high suggest getting the oem front case from the above vendors too. The el cheapo front case gasket will soak up with oil and leak if you don't use some sort of sealant with it.

 

[Artago]

You need to get the correct plug for the bs elimination from Extremepsi or JNZ. This reduce the chance of cracking the front case when you install it. If you insist on using the brass or metal freeze plug, you should consider using JB weld or JB quick to help seal it. I high suggest getting the oem front case from the above vendors too. The el cheapo front case gasket will soak up with oil and leak if you don't use some sort of sealant with it.

This plug? https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=20756&cat=0&page=1

Ordered this front case: https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=18969&cat=0&page=1

Related thread here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/469162-groove-crank-shaft-end-normal-fix-pics.html#post153321344

Tnx

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Use Hi-tack brush on sealer for your front case gasket only. Brush a very thin layer onto both sides of the gasket. It won't come off easily, but it will keep the oil in permanently. The RTV stuff remains flexible, and is not ideal for such a high pressure application.

 

[Artago]

Anyone know where I can find a "cup style" plug for the balance shaft hole that BogusSVO suggested?

 

[killercolt]

any time you have excessive oil leak on the front side of the engine, check the area behind the oil pump drive gear. the seal there can be bad. the oil pump can fail here and leak out of this area. What happen is the big oil pump gear wear into the front case and cause too much oil to leak toward the front. The little seal behind the drive gear can not control the excessive amount of oil and blows out. Sometimes the seal just burn up from the big oil pump gear getting kick side way by the timing belt. Although it is not a guarentee, it is very critical to debur the front case and the oil pump gears to keep from cutting into the case.

Use only gray RTV with oil. The black, copper, and blue silicone get soft when expose to hot oil and gas vapor.

This plug? https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=20756&cat=0&page=1

Ordered this front case: https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=18969&cat=0&page=1

Related thread here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/469162-groove-crank-shaft-end-normal-fix-pics.html#post153321344

Tnx

You are correct. Glob JB weld on the case and place the convex side of the plug against the case. The JB will ooze into all the cracks and holes and give you a very good seal. Good Luck.

 

[Artago]

any time you have excessive oil leak on the front side of the engine, check the area behind the oil pump drive gear. the seal there can be bad. the oil pump can fail here and leak out of this area. What happen is the big oil pump gear wear into the front case and cause too much oil to leak toward the front. The little seal behind the drive gear can not control the excessive amount of oil and blows out. Sometimes the seal just burn up from the big oil pump gear getting kick side way by the timing belt. Although it is not a guarentee, it is very critical to debur the front case and the oil pump gears to keep from cutting into the case.

Use only gray RTV with oil. The black, copper, and blue silicone get soft when expose to hot oil and gas vapor.



You are correct. Glob JB weld on the case and place the convex side of the plug against the case. The JB will ooze into all the cracks and holes and give you a very good seal. Good Luck.

Does the one I ordered front ExtremePSI include the oil pump?