head bolt torqueing 420A

[Locke]

Well, I guess I did cause this originally, by providing outdated information. I apologize. I'll FedEx Danny a beer, free of charge. And, Danny, if you opt to tow the vehicle to northern Indiana, I'll make it right by replacing the head gasket.

If it were me, I would just re-do it. It isn't very difficult. Could have changed 20+ HG's in the time it took to have this debate.

 

[Doug99RS]

Well, I guess I did cause this originally, by providing outdated information. I apologize. I'll FedEx Danny a beer, free of charge. And, Danny, if you opt to tow the vehicle to northern Indiana, I'll make it right by replacing the head gasket.

If it were me, I would just re-do it. It isn't very difficult. Could have changed 20+ HG's in the time it took to have this debate.

I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that you were providing the guy wrong information intentionally and you've been around long enough that I know if you had known a better way to do it, you would have made it known. I'm very appreciative of your efforts to help in the first place. Please don't think by me providing additional information that I meant any insult.
Doug

 

[Locke]

No Doug, I was not insulted. Just an apology to Danny for any extra work he may have to do because of the outdated information I gave him. Definitely better to have the current specs.

 

[Kirby]

KIRBY, you still don't get the point. Ok, hope this isn't to hard for your uber intelligent mind. Help the OP find a solution to his problem with advice based on experience or facts to back it up. You then analyze other peoples advice and help fine tune or correct it, you don't try to be the RIGHT person or the smarter person, because no prizes are awarded here. Its about taking the various information given, disecting the false and not needed info and making or giving the best overall information or decision. Don't take offense to people trying to give you good information, it's ok to learn things.

Hey, look brother I'll be the first to admit I thought I was under attack so I responded in kind. That is what made it about who is right and who is wrong which I will take partial responsibility for. I'm not trying to win any prizes or be the smarter person. I am sure I would loose that battle more times than win. Dissecting the false or incorrect data was exactly what I was trying to do. I am certainly not taking offence to people giving good information, the information here was flawed, but I don't need to re-hash it here, more on that below. I do love to learn things though, that is how I got where I am today. Thanks' for the post.

Now since Doug has taken his wiseman gloves off to play hardball, I suppose I should put my Proven member gloves away so we can play.

Swivel or wobble... there's little to no difference when you're talking about using a torque wrench which is meant to be used straight up from a bolt/nut.

There is a ton of difference. You are talking about a small degree of difference in the actual torque, when using a wobble. A large degree of variation can be had with a swivel. Ask any mechanical engineer you know, a wobble ext is still a square peg in a square hole turning with the torque applied. It just has a tapered top side to allow for a better angle. There might be a very slight difference due to the angle, but it is not likely it would be severe enough to even enter into the conversation. I found a charting of the difference in torque based on the parallel angle applied. The research was done using a universal joint but the science is the same. When using a torque wrench with a wobble extension with a max deflection of 10 degrees the difference in torque is minimal and predictable because it is a fixed plane. We are talking 1-2 ft/lbs maximum. The torque curves start to really separate at 30 degrees of angle. This is an independent study I found on the internet: http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_3.htm . As you will also notice the torque wrenches themselves have a high variation in their accuracy. So a wobble extension throwing off torque by 1-2 ft/lbs really does not matter. A universal joint although it does have a square peg in a square hole, it also has a whole universal joint in the middle with many varying angles and no way to tell which angle you are achieving. You are RIGHT when you say a swivel will not work. Then again no one in this post has mentioned using a swivel except you and Paul. Bottom line torque is not an exact method as it all depends on the accuracy of the tools. They build room for error into the designs for these exact reasons. In an ideal world every bolt would be easy to get to with perfect angles and all torque wrenches would be accurate down to one inch pound. We do not live in an ideal world though so we have to use what works, and my method works for me and many others. Again none of this is any longer of consequence here as it has been established that said bolt reached the proper torque. Like I said above what matters now is the remaining 1/8th turn. We are not sending a man to the moon here we are trying to apply enough force through this bolt to seal the head to the block. We don't need to be accurate down to the 1/1000th of a ft/lb.

No, there has not been a revised bolt for the right rear corner for the head on the neon, cloud car nor the talons. There has not been a revised torque procedure for that SINGLE bolt nor has there been a written notification about any procedure to modify any techniques used when installing a headgasket on any of the before mentioned cars. There HAS been many RUMORS in the dealerships and training classes about cutting the bolts and using bottoming taps to insure that the bolt does not bottom out prematurely and that the block can fully accomodate the head bolt when you properly torque it down to the proper specs.

More on this later.

You're right. It's not a science project where the guy gets to go to the store a buy $25.00 dollars worth of baking soda, vinegar, food coloring and newspaper. Instead when this little project fails because he over or under torqued something because he was guessing at how to do it or following bad advise he gets to buy a new head gasket kit, spend a whole weekend tearing the car apart again and if he's really unlucky gets to buy a new motor do to bend valves and rods in extreme cases.

Ok here we go again, the advice is not bad. As previously stated it is impossible for him to have under torqued the bolt so the only thing that would not be to spec would be the bolt stretch, which AGAIN is fixable without removing the cams, an 1/8 of a turn is an 1/8th of a turn regardless of wobble extensions or not. Does that make sense? You are also correct that IF I was wrong a new gasket set would have to be purchased and he would have to spend a weekend tearing down the car again. Now If I go back to your original advice didn't you tell him to "man up" and do just that. So what's the difference in spending the money now or later? If nothing goes wrong later then no money needs to be spent. On another note how can a bad HG cause someone to bend valves or rods Doug? Isn't this kind of damage usually reserved for timing belt or pulley failure?

You didn't say just turn it to tight and then to a 1/4 but you did say "Torque them the rest of the way" after it's already been turned the 1/4 turn,
But you fail to mention how to do it accurately without overstretching the bolts or undertorqueing them.

Actually I have not failed to mention it, it has actually been reviewed several times now. In fact it was in my first post although admittedly I was not specific enough. So let's review. First off the head bolts ARE re-usable. In my factory service manual from 95 it clearly states to check the head bolts for stretch (necking) before reuse. So there is a spec, and that means these bolts are capable of stretching multiple times and still achieve the correct result. More on this fan Amana later. So that tells us they are re-usable anyway which means that since the car was not fired he could back out the bolts with a wobble and re-torque to the appropriate tq and then do his ¼ turn. This would be the same thing as re-using the bolts, which is well documented to work perfectly by many DSMers. Now let's examine the properties of a torque to yield bolt. At a certain torque level the metal changes properties to "stretch". Now I do not have the exact thread pitch but let's say they are thread pitch of 1.5 mm. They would have a 1.5 mm downward movement for every 365 degrees of rotation on the bolt head. That is 0.375 mm of movement in a ¼ turn. Except for the aforementioned bolt hole the threads are not bottomed out, that is how this stretch occurs. (That is why you hear "rumors" of shaving length in the right rear corner bolt (otherwise known as bolt 7 in the book) because it is a proven method.) Now it is widely known that these heads are fine with 90 ft/lbs of torque when using ARP hardware. So even if he did put a torque wrench on the bolts and verify the 35 ft/lbs spec and then gone another ¼ turn as I suggested that would still only be an additional 0.375 mm of movement. This is not going to result in any sort of dangerous over torque or over stretch of the head bolts. The bolt will not stretch in the same place twice so the additional stretch will effect a different portion of the inches of thread at the bottom of the bolt. Since the bolts are not bottomed out it will not cause a rise in the bolt head either. So there is no danger of causing decreased clamp load on the head which is what you mean when you say the bolts may over stretch. If anything it would end up that the bolt had a slightly higher torque in it's final position, again not an issue since the head can take the pressure. You guy's are assuming a lot when you state things as though once these bolts have been turned that extra ¼ turn that they are now useless.

You've got to remember Kirby. You're providing information that is being read by people all over this country. How you do things for your car might be working well for you but as experienced as you and I are we need to be providing quality information and support to other people who don't have the same abilities. If you want to suggest the swivel technique to a veteran 420A as a "hey, if you're in a pinch, try this" that's one thing but it's very clear that this author needs the right information, the first time for a reason. When you provide short-cuts and questionable practices to the general public and pass it off as a perfectly acceptable practice for everyone then there will be even more people who will try and shortcut the shortcuts. Please keep that in mind when posting up in the future.
Doug

Yes Doug you are right. This forum is for people to learn from those of us with experience and knowledge. I hope I have shared enough of that in this post to help you out in seeing my point of view. I will point out that this was never about right or wrong until you said "You can't torque them "the rest of the way" in that manner. That's not how torquing procedures work. In order to do it properly you must remove the head bolts and reinstall them at which point the gasket MIGHT have to be replaced and possibly the headbolts as well since they are torque-to-yield bolts." This statement implies that my advice is useless and that the OP will have to re-do everything. You will notice, if you read the posts, that I never said your method was wrong, only unnecessary. Your advice was to make unnecessary repairs. I am only trying to show that there are many way's of CORRECTLY achieving a desired result. Your way and mine are both correct just for the record. Mine is just less costly in dollars and time. I encourage you to research my methods and see how questionable they are. I also encourage you to keep this in mind when posting up in the future. "Just because someone posts a way that is not your own, does not mean that it is wrong, incorrect, or dismissible." Just because you were not trained this way does not mean it is not a correct, proven, or valid method to get the job done. There is more than one way to skin a cat brother. This is how people become veteran DSMers, by getting the advice and help of people who have done this before and know what they are doing. For now I will remember that I am sharing tried and true methods for dealing with issues, regardless of others opinions. Now everyone in the country gets to benefit from my proven advice. In closing I like how you named it "the swivel technique" when I have never suggested using a swivel joint.
<-----steps off the soap box hopefully for the last time.

Oh I forgot to the OP. Both of these methods will achieve the desired result. The only thing is one way will cost you more time and money than the other. I want you to make your OWN decision. I hope that now you have all the reasoning to make an appropriate decision, and I wish you luck in whatever road you take!

 

[Doug99RS]

I guess to clear the air I'll start by saying I'm cool with the 1/8 turn for this one particular application with the "wobble" socket. But that's where we part ways again.

To clear the air, by wobble I'm assuming you mean the item in picture 1.

There is a ton of difference. You are talking about a small degree of difference in the actual torque, when using a wobble. A large degree of variation can be had with a swivel.

To clear the air, by wobble I'm assuming you mean the item in picture 1.

Ask any mechanical engineer you know, a wobble ext is still a square peg in a square hole turning with the torque applied. It just has a tapered top side to allow for a better angle. There might be a very slight difference due to the angle, but it is not likely it would be severe enough to even enter into the conversation. I found a charting of the difference in torque based on the parallel angle applied. The research was done using a universal joint but the science is the same. When using a torque wrench with a wobble extension with a max deflection of 10 degrees the difference in torque is minimal and predictable because it is a fixed plane. We are talking 1-2 ft/lbs maximum. The torque curves start to really separate at 30 degrees of angle.

Oh... did you mean this kind of 30 degree angle (picture 2) needed to clear the camshaft when using that same wobble I just showed in picture 1? Now mind you this is just a 3/8 drive ratchet, not even a wopper of a 1/2 drive that nearly all torque wrenches going up to 50 ft/lbs are made in and I've yet to see a 3/8 breaker bar that can handle 1/4 turn beyond 35 & 50 ft/lbs for 8 head bolts. Then there's the fact that I was just barely able to get this wobble socket in there between the cam and the oil passage. This was with the rockers off. Maybe I should go put them back on just for test purposes.

This is an independent study I found on the internet: http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_3.htm . As you will also notice the torque wrenches themselves have a high variation in their accuracy. So a wobble extension throwing off torque by 1-2 ft/lbs really does not matter. A universal joint although it does have a square peg in a square hole, it also has a whole universal joint in the middle with many varying angles and no way to tell which angle you are achieving. You are RIGHT when you say a swivel will not work. Then again no one in this post has mentioned using a swivel except you and Paul. Bottom line torque is not an exact method as it all depends on the accuracy of the tools. They build room for error into the designs for these exact reasons. In an ideal world every bolt would be easy to get to with perfect angles and all torque wrenches would be accurate down to one inch pound. We do not live in an ideal world though so we have to use what works, and my method works for me and many others. Again none of this is any longer of consequence here as it has been established that said bolt reached the proper torque. Like I said above what matters now is the remaining 1/8th turn. We are not sending a man to the moon here we are trying to apply enough force through this bolt to seal the head to the block. We don't need to be accurate down to the 1/1000th of a ft/lb.

On the argument of torque wrench accuracy you're REALLY not helping yourself. You've just said not all torque wrenches are accurate. I very much agree which is why you're always suppose to set it back to it's lowest setting or to 20% of it's max setting, or if you've got a high dollar one you can leave it at whatever you want. Also, they come in blow-molded cases for a reason so they won't be damaged as easily. But you've just said it's inaccurate, I've just showed that in order to get a socket on there and start turning it you're at that questionable 30* plus point. So the person using a wobble socket or swivvle socket plus a torque wrench is only using two less than perfect objects to try and obtain a more perfect result. Analogy: Putting pink and baby blue paints together and expecting a deep purple paint, it's just not going to happen but the right paints were sitting on the shelf next to the ones you picked up.

As previously stated it is impossible for him to have under torqued the bolt so the only thing that would not be to spec would be the bolt stretch, which AGAIN is fixable without removing the cams, an 1/8 of a turn is an 1/8th of a turn regardless of wobble extensions or not. Does that make sense?

It is possible that it is under-torqued if it is left unchecked. Fixable, I guess, see first statement to this post.

You are also correct that IF I was wrong a new gasket set would have to be purchased and he would have to spend a weekend tearing down the car again. Now If I go back to your original advice didn't you tell him to "man up" and do just that. So what's the difference in spending the money now or later? If nothing goes wrong later then no money needs to be spent.

The difference is that if he "man's up" and does the right thing now he won't have to go back in later for making a mistake now. If the headgasket fails bad enough then he will not only be out the time and small amount of money (comparitively speaking) of the headgasket kit but will also have to buy whatever parts are subsequently damaged from the headgasket failure, see below.

On another note how can a bad HG cause someone to bend valves or rods Doug? Isn't this kind of damage usually reserved for timing belt or pulley failure?

The bent valves and rods would come in to play in the event of headgasket failure where coolant enters in to the combustion chamber and hydro-locks the engine. On these engines, the cloud cars, the neons and the minivans with the 2.4L's, when they blow bad enough the oil and coolant mix long before anything goes in to the combustion chamber so I was being a BIT dramatic I know. BUT there's still the issue of oil-contaminated hoses, heater core, radiator, T-Stat and everywhere else it goes. The system will have to be flushed also. ALSO, if the coolant system stays pressurized long enough and the blown section between coolant and oil passages is bad enough then the coolant, during engine cool down, will flow in to the oil passages and end up in the pan. This will then be pumped in place of the oil which will lead to oil starvation, spun bearings and the like. Now, the bent valves and rods come in to play with a blown headgasket where the coolant seeps in to the combustion chamber thereby causing the engine to hydro-lock.

Yes, All very dramatic, maybe a little overkill but I wasn't the one that said the new head bolts had to be tightened to new specs, Chrysler was so I'm pretty sure a bunch of brainiacs who get paid boo-koo bucks to build motors and parts for them day in and day out probably know a bit more than I do and came out with the new torque specs for a reason.

Actually I have not failed to mention it, it has actually been reviewed several times now. In fact it was in my first post although admittedly I was not specific enough. So let's review. First off the head bolts ARE re-usable. In my factory service manual from 95 it clearly states to check the head bolts for stretch (necking) before reuse. So there is a spec, and that means these bolts are capable of stretching multiple times and still achieve the correct result.

Uh... don't forget about middle section too. The threaded part is not the only area that stretches.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us70480.htm
Section 4. While I have re-used headbolts in STOCK applications without failure they are bolts that are meant to be stretched. A metal that has it's characteristics changed through stretching or heating will NOT have the same characteristics when removed and reapplied. It's not a regenerating metal and cannot unstretch itself but so much. In a stock form reusing them can be done ONCE but not mutliple times. As explained in that same section, the bolts do not hold the same torque load the second and third usage as they do the first time they were used. Additional torque will need to be applied or replacements will be needed to achieve the same clamping force.

More on this fan Amana later. So that tells us they are re-usable anyway which means that since the car was not fired he could back out the bolts with a wobble and re-torque to the appropriate tq and then do his ¼ turn. This would be the same thing as re-using the bolts, which is well documented to work perfectly by many DSMers. Now let's examine the properties of a torque to yield bolt. At a certain torque level the metal changes properties to "stretch". Now I do not have the exact thread pitch but let's say they are thread pitch of 1.5 mm. They would have a 1.5 mm downward movement for every 365 degrees of rotation on the bolt head. That is 0.375 mm of movement in a ¼ turn. Except for the aforementioned bolt hole the threads are not bottomed out, that is how this stretch occurs. (That is why you hear "rumors" of shaving length in the right rear corner bolt (otherwise known as bolt 7 in the book) because it is a proven method.) Now it is widely known that these heads are fine with 90 ft/lbs of torque when using ARP hardware. So even if he did put a torque wrench on the bolts and verify the 35 ft/lbs spec and then gone another ¼ turn as I suggested that would still only be an additional 0.375 mm of movement. This is not going to result in any sort of dangerous over torque or over stretch of the head bolts. The bolt will not stretch in the same place twice so the additional stretch will effect a different portion of the inches of thread at the bottom of the bolt. Since the bolts are not bottomed out it will not cause a rise in the bolt head either. So there is no danger of causing decreased clamp load on the head which is what you mean when you say the bolts may over stretch. If anything it would end up that the bolt had a slightly higher torque in it's final position, again not an issue since the head can take the pressure. You guy's are assuming a lot when you state things as though once these bolts have been turned that extra ¼ turn that they are now useless.

I think you've got the stretch idea all wrong. The stretch is not designed to take place at the threads. Just think of all the damage to the threads of the block and the bolts that would take place if ever time you torqued something down the threads were meant to give? The stretch is designed to take place between the end of the threaded section, closest to the head and the bottom of the head of the bolt, under your socket. As you turn the bolt down, the threads are grabbing the block. Once you finally reach the 50 ft/lbs essentially the bolt is ready to be "torqued" to it's yield point. When you give it that 1/4 turn you are in deed forcing the threads down a bit further but ever single tooth of the bolt is working to hold the bolt in place and any stretching that is going on is taking place above the threads and below the head. If the threads stretched ANY then they would draw away from their mating surfaces and strip out. THAT'S why you check for signs of necking down at the threaded section so that all of the clamping force can be applied to 100% of the block threaded surface and 100% of the bolt threaded surface.

Oh I forgot to the OP. Both of these methods will achieve the desired result. The only thing is one way will cost you more time and money than the other. I want you to make your OWN decision. I hope that now you have all the reasoning to make an appropriate decision, and I wish you luck in whatever road you take!

Yes, feel free to take whatever road you like once you see all the facts.

 

[Doug99RS]

I forgot a picture.

 

[Kirby]

I guess to clear the air I'll start by saying I'm cool with the 1/8 turn for this one particular application with the "wobble" socket. But that's where we part ways again.

To clear the air, by wobble I'm assuming you mean the item in picture 1.

That is why we are having issues here Doug; we are talking apples and oranges. This is the wobble extension that I am speaking of : http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/18700/18609.JPG

This specific one allows for 16 degrees of movement I believe that is slightly more than mine. You put a regular socket onto the end of this in my process. I figured someone who has nine years of professional experience would have run across one of those little buggers at some point. Then again I never said wobble socket so I don't even know how you thought we were talking about one?

Oh... did you mean this kind of 30 degree angle (picture 2) needed to clear the camshaft when using that same wobble I just showed in picture 1? Now mind you this is just a 3/8 drive ratchet, not even a wopper of a 1/2 drive that nearly all torque wrenches going up to 50 ft/lbs are made in and I've yet to see a 3/8 breaker bar that can handle 1/4 turn beyond 35 & 50 ft/lbs for 8 head bolts. Then there's the fact that I was just barely able to get this wobble socket in there between the cam and the oil passage. This was with the rockers off. Maybe I should go put them back on just for test purposes.

This is just because you are talking about the wrong tool. But I do have a craftsman 3/8 drive torque wrench that goes up to 80 or 90 ft/lbs. Surly mine is not the only torque wrench that comes in 3/8 drive. My breaker bar works fine to do the additional ¼ turn, but at this point you could even use a ½ inch breaker with a reducer since it's only the amount of turn at that point. Do you break a lot of 3/8 breakers at low torque?

On the argument of torque wrench accuracy you're REALLY not helping yourself. You've just said not all torque wrenches are accurate. I very much agree which is why you're always suppose to set it back to it's lowest setting or to 20% of it's max setting, or if you've got a high dollar one you can leave it at whatever you want. Also, they come in blow-molded cases for a reason so they won't be damaged as easily. But you've just said it's inaccurate, I've just showed that in order to get a socket on there and start turning it you're at that questionable 30* plus point. So the person using a wobble socket or swivvle socket plus a torque wrench is only using two less than perfect objects to try and obtain a more perfect result. Analogy: Putting pink and baby blue paints together and expecting a deep purple paint, it's just not going to happy but the right paints were sitting on the shelf next to the ones you picked up.

Again apples and oranges. Using the wobble extension and either a regular or mid-well socket will yield a consistent angle below the 30 degree threshold. What's the old saying, "Right tool for the right job?" I am very aware of the proper care required for torque wrenches to stay accurate. However you have not shown anything associated with my method due to the assumptions you have made. So to review, using my method, hopefully using an accurate torque wrench, you will be possibly 1-2 ft/lbs off, again not an issue. So the accuracy of the torque wrench does not help or hinder either argument. The bottom line is that there is room for error in either method, and there needs to be since every mechanic does not have their wrench recalibrated often. Yellow and blue is the fastest way to make green right?

It is possible that it is under-torqued if it is left unchecked. Fixable, I guess, see first statement to this post.

Exactly, could be under torqued as far as final "stretch" torque but fixable indeed.

The difference is that if he "man's up" and does the right thing now he won't have to go back in later for making a mistake now. If the headgasket fails bad enough then he will not only be out the time and small amount of money (comparitively speaking) of the headgasket kit but will also have to buy whatever parts are subsequently damaged from the headgasket failure, see below.

That's true Doug, but I guess the fact that we both agree on the 1/8th turn kind of negates this argument. Now I have never seen a head gasket fail bad enough in one of these cars to cause this type of big money damage, more below.

The bent valves and rods would come in to play in the event of headgasket failure where coolant enters in to the combustion chamber and hydro-locks the engine. On these engines, the cloud cars, the neons and the minivans with the 2.4L's, when they blow bad enough the oil and coolant mix long before anything goes in to the combustion chamber so I was being a BIT dramatic I know. BUT there's still the issue of oil-contaminated hoses, heater core, radiator, T-Stat and everywhere else it goes. The system will have to be flushed also. ALSO, if the coolant system stays pressurized long enough and the blown section between coolant and oil passages is bad enough then the coolant, during engine cool down, will flow in to the oil passages and end up in the pan. This will then be pumped in place of the oil which will lead to oil starvation, spun bearings and the like. Now, the bent valves and rods come in to play with a blown headgasket where the coolant seeps in to the combustion chamber thereby causing the engine to hydro-lock.

So we both agree then that this statement although totally "possible" is HIGHLY unlikely. I have never seen a 420a hydro lock from a head gasket issue in the hands of any tuner on the boards I frequent. You will always see the signs of the situation before something like this happens if you are looking for them. I do agree about the associated costs of flushing etc, but my advice would NOT lead to any of these situations. This is a car board and not a drama class right. We should not be overstating things for dramatic effect, just to prove our advice is better should we?


A good question to the OP do you plan to flush your system after the work, because you absolutely should if the HG failed and caused a fluid mix.

Yes, All very dramatic, maybe a little overkill but I wasn't the one that said the new head bolts had to be tightened to new specs, Chrysler was so I'm pretty sure a bunch of brainiacs who get paid boo-koo bucks to build motors and parts for them day in and day out probably know a bit more than I do and came out with the new torque specs for a reason.

Well why did these "brainiacs" who are so well paid get it wrong the first time with an inferior gasket a suspect bolt hole. The dealer and their employees are not always right. I had a dealer tell me one time it was impossible for me to install a turbo on my car until I popped the hood and showed them. I'm not saying the new torque specs are wrong though. They absolutely came out with the new specs for a reason, but did the bolts change though? I am not inside the dealer as you are so I am not aware of any changes. I did call my local DCX dealer and they said there were no changes in the bolts, only the gasket. So that means that the bolts are capable of more "stretch torque" than you give them credit for if they increased the torque load but did not change the bolt. More on this later.

Yes Uh... don't forget about middle section too. The threaded part is not the only area that stretches.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us70480.htm
Section 4. While I have re-used headbolts in STOCK applications without failure they are bolts that are meant to be stretched. A metal that has it's characteristics changed through stretching or heating will NOT have the same characteristics when removed and reapplied. It's not a regenerating metal and cannot unstretch itself but so much. In a stock form reusing them can be done ONCE but not mutliple times. As explained in that same section, the bolts do not hold the same torque load the second and third usage as they do the first time they were used. Additional torque will need to be applied or replacements will be needed to achieve the same clamping force.

You are correct Doug the properties will change permanently once the bolt has been stretched. Only in the place it stretched though. The metal will not stretch in the same place twice. That is why it is re-usable. I have re-used head bolts in BOOSTED applications without failure, as have many DSM'ers. I have also known people to re-use them more than 2 times in boosted apps with no issues. I would not recommend that though as I have not tested their limit personally. I would be comfortable with your 2 times advice even though I know they have been used successfully more than that. Better safe than sorry. I personally went to ARP studs so I no longer have to worry about it.

I think you've got the stretch idea all wrong. The stretch is not designed to take place at the threads. Just think of all the damage to the threads of the block and the bolts that would take place if ever time you torqued something down the threads were meant to give? The stretch is designed to take place between the end of the threaded section, closest to the head and the bottom of the head of the bolt, under your socket. As you turn the bolt down, the threads are grabbing the block. Once you finally reach the 50 ft/lbs essentially the bolt is ready to be "torqued" to it's yield point. When you give it that 1/4 turn you are in deed forcing the threads down a bit further but ever single tooth of the bolt is working to hold the bolt in place and any stretching that is going on is taking place above the threads and below the head. If the threads stretched ANY then they would draw away from their mating surfaces and strip out. THAT'S why you check for signs of necking down at the threaded section so that all of the clamping force can be applied to 100% of the block threaded surface and 100% of the bolt threaded surface.

Actually Doug I believe YOU have the stretch idea all wrong. Is this what DCX taught you in training?
1. The stretch is specifically designed to happen at the threads. The bolt is going to stretch at its weakest point. See the photos below. The stretch is going to happen in the threads because the bolt is thinner in the cut of the threads than it is in the unthreaded portion of the bolt. That makes the threads the weak point.
2. You would bring up a good point about the threads in the block being damaged, if it were correct. Look at the bolt in your own picture, it is a used bolt right? If you take a close look, notice how the threads are only partially covered in oil/grime? Have you ever measured how deep down in the block the threads start? They don't start at the very top of the block. The threads are not 100% engaged and they are not designed to be. If the threads were 100% engaged then the bolt would "top out" when it got to the end of the threads at the 100% engaged point. This would be a very bad bolt design don't you think Doug? The picture in the book shows to check for necking because that is what happens when the bolt stretches. The remaining threads that are not engaged are where the stretch takes place.

 

[Doug99RS]

we are talking apples and oranges. http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/18700/18609.JPG

I was mistaken. I appologize.

I figured someone who has nine years of professional experience would have run across one of those little buggers at some point. Then again I never said wobble socket so I don't even know how you thought we were talking about one?

Yes I've seen those before, I don't own/use them because I use the sockets shown above. The chrome extensions tend to break more frequently when used with an impact and the thought of using one that has an even narrower kneck on it... well, I could only SPECULATE that it would be weaker so I've never bought one. Plus there's the fact that every Snap-on man I've ever met is an even bigger D.ck than you probably think I am so I don't deal with them. Plus, they are even harder to track down. That is another subject for another time though.

This is just because you are talking about the wrong tool. But I do have a craftsman 3/8 drive torque wrench that goes up to 80 or 90 ft/lbs. Surly mine is not the only torque wrench that comes in 3/8 drive. My breaker bar works fine to do the additional ¼ turn, but at this point you could even use a ½ inch breaker with a reducer since it's only the amount of turn at that point. Do you break a lot of 3/8 breakers at low torque?

Breaker bars, no, 3/8 extensions yes which is why when it comes to head bolts I stick with 1/2 drive and so do others in the trade (that I've seen). I've rung off more reducers in my life then I care to discuss.

So to review, using my method, hopefully using an accurate torque wrench, you will be possibly 1-2 ft/lbs off, again not an issue. So the accuracy of the torque wrench does not help or hinder either argument. The bottom line is that there is room for error in either method, and there needs to be since every mechanic does not have their wrench recalibrated often. Yellow and blue is the fastest way to make green right?

Buying green is fastest.

About your method... I've been trying to figure out a reason for even doing it your way and it's not come to me. So you get the wobble EXTENSION in there for loosening purposes and completely loosen all the head bolts. You've still got the head bolts stuck below the cams, the headgasket material is a complete pain in the a$$ to clean with the bolts still there so why even leave them there?

The only time I've seen this SORT of short-cutting done was when someone was half-assing the job in the dealerships by doing a "Slip-and-slide" on a neon/talon/cloud where they lifted the head up just far enough "slip" the old gasket out and "slide" the new one in without cleaning any of the block/head surfaces. This practice could be done in 45 to 90 minutes as opposed to the 4-5 hours the job pays and the tech basically pockets the profit and screwed the customer of a quality job. So... how is your way actually being beneficial to the overall tear down part of a HG repair if you've just got to pull the whole thing apart anyways? Furthermore, by leaving the cams in there you increase the chances of the lobes holding the valves open while dealing with the head. So why even bother?

You will always see the signs of the situation before something like this happens if you are looking for them. I do agree about the associated costs of flushing etc, but my advice would NOT lead to any of these situations. This is a car board and not a drama class right. We should not be overstating things for dramatic effect, just to prove our advice is better should we?

You would be suprised the number of times a car has come in with oil and coolant mixed so bad that the hoses are already swolen, the coolant looks like mud and the resevior has to washed out numerous times with hot water and brake cleaner. Overheating was a common problem on the 2gnt's and the 2.0 sohc's, I think this is where my professional experience, which you have discounted, has afforded me the opportunity to see the extent of what I'm referring to.

A good question to the OP do you plan to flush your system after the work, because you absolutely should if the HG failed and caused a fluid mix.

I'm hoping you're also including an oil change with any sort of internal engine repair.

Well why did these "brainiacs" who are so well paid get it wrong the first time with an inferior gasket a suspect bolt hole. The dealer and their employees are not always right. I had a dealer tell me one time it was impossible for me to install a turbo on my car until I popped the hood and showed them. I'm not saying the new torque specs are wrong though. They absolutely came out with the new specs for a reason, but did the bolts change though? I am not inside the dealer as you are so I am not aware of any changes. I did call my local DCX dealer and they said there were no changes in the bolts, only the gasket. So that means that the bolts are capable of more "stretch torque" than you give them credit for if they increased the torque load but did not change the bolt. More on this later.

Actually, it wasn't the "bolt hole" causing the problem though you probably just meant that area, it was three problems. 1. composite gasket, 2. the aluminum head/cast iron block heat transferring poorly, and 3. oil pressure feed port to the head at that tri-oval shape in the corner that leaks.

The composite gasket worked great when you had two cast iron components because they heated and cooled at the same rate so there wasn't alot of movement in the gasket. The aluminum head heated up and cooled down faster than the cast iron block so basically what happened is the gasket was rubbed back and forth between the two surfaces and the engine heated up and cooled down. Eventually, this caused it to leak oil because right there at the corner is the high pressure feed leading to the head so naturally, the first sign of the HG failure on these motors is the external oil leaks. As the failure progresses it mixes in to the coolant passages next to it. If the customer continues to drive it you develope rod knock due to oil starvation. This is not seen as much but it does happen enough to say it is not uncommon. It's called neglect and typically you can look inside the car and see that the rest of the car is trashed to match the neglect that the engine was subjected to as well.

You are correct Doug the properties will change permanently once the bolt has been stretched. Only in the place it stretched though. The metal will not stretch in the same place twice. That is why it is re-usable. I have re-used head bolts in BOOSTED applications without failure, as have many DSM'ers. I have also known people to re-use them more than 2 times in boosted apps with no issues. I would not recommend that though as I have not tested their limit personally. I would be comfortable with your 2 times advice even though I know they have been used successfully more than that. Better safe than sorry. I personally went to ARP studs so I no longer have to worry about it.

Actually Doug I believe YOU have the stretch idea all wrong. Is this what DCX taught you in training?
1. The stretch is specifically designed to happen at the threads. The bolt is going to stretch at its weakest point. See the photos below. The stretch is going to happen in the threads because the bolt is thinner in the cut of the threads than it is in the unthreaded portion of the bolt. That makes the threads the weak point.
2. You would bring up a good point about the threads in the block being damaged, if it were correct. Look at the bolt in your own picture, it is a used bolt right? If you take a close look, notice how the threads are only partially covered in oil/grime? Have you ever measured how deep down in the block the threads start? They don't start at the very top of the block. The threads are not 100% engaged and they are not designed to be. If the threads were 100% engaged then the bolt would "top out" when it got to the end of the threads at the 100% engaged point. This would be a very bad bolt design don't you think Doug? The picture in the book shows to check for necking because that is what happens when the bolt stretches. The remaining threads that are not engaged are where the stretch takes place.

I see you didn't bother to read that link I posted up so I'll quote it here so maybe you'll read some of it:
"Like a rubber band, a head bolt under load will stretch and spring back to its original length when the load is released. But if stretched too far, the bolt will either become permanently elongated or break. Head bolts that have become permanently elongated may deform along the length of the shank or in the threaded area. Inspecting head bolts, therefore, for obvious "necking down" in the shank or at the top of the threaded area can reveal bolts that have been stretched too far and should be replaced. Reusing a deformed bolt is risky because the bolt may not hold proper torque, and it may fail when you attempt to retighten it. Or worse yet, it may fail at some point later down the road causing the head gasket to leak and/or the engine to overheat."

Yes do that after all the FACTS come in and not just assumptions and bad training that seem to have dominated this thread.

Maybe if you took the time to read some of the 1900 OTHER posts I have you might come to a conclusion that bad training is quite the opposite of what I bring to DSMTuners.

 

[Kirby]

I was mistaken. I appologize.

No problem Doug.

Yes I've seen those before, I don't own/use them because I use the sockets shown above. The chrome extensions tend to break more frequently when used with an impact and the thought of using one that has an even narrower kneck on it... well, I could only SPECULATE that it would be weaker so I've never bought one. Plus there's the fact that every Snap-on man I've ever met is an even bigger D.ck than you probably think I am so I don't deal with them. Plus, they are even harder to track down. That is another subject for another time though.

The sockets you posted do look useful and I may go buy some of those for the old tool box myself. They look like they could come in handy in many applications. I do understand what you mean with the impact guns but I don’t use them for that type of work. I doubt it is that much weaker than a regular extension for regular use though. As for the snap on thing that was just the first/best picture I could find of the tool. I don’t think you are a d__k either Doug, this is not personal for me.

Breaker bars, no, 3/8 extensions yes which is why when it comes to head bolts I stick with 1/2 drive and so do others in the trade (that I've seen). I've rung off more reducers in my life then I care to discuss.

Ok you said breaker bars so that was why I asked. As for the extensions I have never broken a wobble or regular extension on head bolts. I know that a lot of people in the trade use ½” drive for everything they can and I don’t blame them. 3/8 is plenty comfortable for head bolts though. As for reducers durability is not their strong suit for sure but it would work in this situation for that 1/8 turn.

Buying green is fastest.

Touché! But the yellow and blue must meet somewhere down the line to make the green.

About your method... I've been trying to figure out a reason for even doing it your way and it's not come to me. So you get the wobble EXTENSION in there for loosening purposes and completely loosen all the head bolts. You've still got the head bolts stuck below the cams, the headgasket material is a complete pain in the a$$ to clean with the bolts still there so why even leave them there?

Good point Doug, But you have to remember the context of my advice. Remember the Facts here. We are talking about a freshly assembled engine that has not been fired or run since the stock HG was swapped to a MLS HG. So why would you need to remove any old gasket residue if that was just done before the re-assembly? Also we need to remember that my advice was not to pull anything back off, but just to re check torque on the bolts and continue. The whole idea of my advice was not to lift the head back off the block.

The only time I've seen this SORT of short-cutting done was when someone was half-assing the job in the dealerships by doing a "Slip-and-slide" on a neon/talon/cloud where they lifted the head up just far enough "slip" the old gasket out and "slide" the new one in without cleaning any of the block/head surfaces. This practice could be done in 45 to 90 minutes as opposed to the 4-5 hours the job pays and the tech basically pockets the profit and screwed the customer of a quality job. So... how is your way actually being beneficial to the overall tear down part of a HG repair if you've just got to pull the whole thing apart anyways? Furthermore, by leaving the cams in there you increase the chances of the lobes holding the valves open while dealing with the head. So why even bother?

Again Doug good points, just not the ones being discussed here. Again no clean up has to be done since it was just done before we came to this thread.

You would be suprised the number of times a car has come in with oil and coolant mixed so bad that the hoses are already swolen, the coolant looks like mud and the resevior has to washed out numerous times with hot water and brake cleaner. Overheating was a common problem on the 2gnt's and the 2.0 sohc's, I think this is where my professional experience, which you have discounted, has afforded me the opportunity to see the extent of what I'm referring to.

Doug you don’t need professional experience to know that these things are possible. If you look back my response was possible but highly unlikely. Why is it unlikely? We are talking about a member of a performance/ maintenance board. We are not talking about john q public that will drive the car overheating with mixed coolant/oil for 100000 miles. He will notice the issue before any of this develops. If we were talking about a know nothing I could see your point, but this guy just did the HG replacement himself, not the work of your average ballooned hoses guy that is finally bringing the car in for service.

I'm hoping you're also including an oil change with any sort of internal engine repair.

Let’s hope he was smart enough for that, the flush is the one people tend to over look.

I'm Actually, it wasn't the "bolt hole" causing the problem though you probably just meant that area, it was three problems. 1. composite gasket, 2. the aluminum head/cast iron block heat transferring poorly, and 3. oil pressure feed port to the head at that tri-oval shape in the corner that leaks.

The composite gasket worked great when you had two cast iron components because they heated and cooled at the same rate so there wasn't alot of movement in the gasket. The aluminum head heated up and cooled down faster than the cast iron block so basically what happened is the gasket was rubbed back and forth between the two surfaces and the engine heated up and cooled down. Eventually, this caused it to leak oil because right there at the corner is the high pressure feed leading to the head so naturally, the first sign of the HG failure on these motors is the external oil leaks. As the failure progresses it mixes in to the coolant passages next to it. If the customer continues to drive it you develope rod knock due to oil starvation. This is not seen as much but it does happen enough to say it is not uncommon. It's called neglect and typically you can look inside the car and see that the rest of the car is trashed to match the neglect that the engine was subjected to as well.

Again Doug all good points but they do not apply here. I am not going to argue any more about the problem area with the head. The fact is though as stated above, we are not talking about a neglectful customer that comes into your shop. We are talking about someone that has the knowledge and ability to seek help with car issues. We are also talking about someone who just did a head gasket job prior to posting this thread. We are not talking about your average customer who knows nothing. So again although these situations are POSSIBLE they are HIGHLY UNLIKELY when we consider our audience.

I see you didn't bother to read that link I posted up so I'll quote it here so maybe you'll read some of it:
"Like a rubber band, a head bolt under load will stretch and spring back to its original length when the load is released. But if stretched too far, the bolt will either become permanently elongated or break. Head bolts that have become permanently elongated may deform along the length of the shank or in the threaded area. Inspecting head bolts, therefore, for obvious "necking down" in the shank or at the top of the threaded area can reveal bolts that have been stretched too far and should be replaced. Reusing a deformed bolt is risky because the bolt may not hold proper torque, and it may fail when you attempt to retighten it. Or worse yet, it may fail at some point later down the road causing the head gasket to leak and/or the engine to overheat."

Actually Doug I read your link in its entirety. It is a general purpose link though with no relevance to the 420a except common terminology. Did you know that as temps heat up and heads expand the bolt stretches every time you use it through heating and cooling? That is the rubber band effect that is talked about. Now they say when stretched “too far”, that there is a possibility of breakage / other issues. Now “too far” is a pretty scientific measurement right? How far is too far? What is the exact point at which a 420a specific head bolt will fail or become an issue? Notice it does not say any of that here, as this is a general non specific site with general information about TTY head bolts. There are some models of cars out there that I am sure you can not use the TTY head bolts more than once. Now let’s go to something specific for the 420a and our head bolts, something like the Factory Service Manual. (See pictures in my last post.) What you will find is specific non general information about the re-use of our head bolts. The verdict is you can use them more than once. Now let’s again apply the knowledge to the situation at hand. We have a car that has not been fired since it received a HG replacement and new head bolts. We know the bolts were never taken to “full stretch” during the reinstall process so we know they are not out of spec. We also know that the work has been done in the last week, probably the last weekend. Your advice was to tear the car back down and re-do the HG and possibly get new head bolts. Is that one correct way to handle the situation? YES it is one way. Another way to correctly handle the situation is to use my suggestion. Get a wobble extension, set your wrench for the appropriate torque and re-torque the bolts. Then do your ¼ turn. As we found out from Paul that would have put him 1/8 of a turn past spec on brand new bolts. This would not have caused a single issue on our motor as I said before they can take the clamp load. It also would not have put the bolts in to a stage of dangerous overstretch.

Maybe if you took the time to read some of the 1900 OTHER posts I have you might come to a conclusion that bad training is quite the opposite of what I bring to DSMTuners.

Well Doug I was not concluding on the other 1900 posts I was concluding on this one. I was not questioning your value to the board in general. I can tell you are experienced and passionate. These are good qualities in a Wiseman or a good board member. In this situation though you called my advice bad advice and the fact is my advice was just as good if not better than yours depending on where you are standing. Again I never said you were wrong I simply said that I was not either.

 

[Slippi84]

I knwo I'm def digging here but it is for a important reason. I have arp head studs what should my torque sequence be well more the specs I know the sequence is the same. I see people toquing arps to like 75-100lbs

 

[4UH8ERS]

Ohh and just to clarify that is does matter. I followed my haynes manual instructions as well on my MLS headgasket instead of using the proper specs doug mentioned. Well currently 22 thousand miles later. Guess what I'm replacing

 

[Slippi84]

Ohh and just to clarify that is does matter. I followed my haynes manual instructions as well on my MLS headgasket instead of using the proper specs doug mentioned. Well currently 22 thousand miles later. Guess what I'm replacing

I torqued them down just like he said but I feel like since I"m using nitrous I should torque the arps to more like 80 than 50

 

[totaleclipse_05]

I torqued them down just like he said but I feel like since I"m using nitrous I should torque the arps to more like 80 than 50

You forgot about the extra 1/4 turn after they are torqued to 50.

 

[Slippi84]

You forgot about the extra 1/4 turn after they are torqued to 50.

no i did that

 

[cs82685]

A few recommendations on 2gnt lead me to the conclusion of 90 ft/lbs using arps if you're boosted/using nitrous. Others said 75, others 80. I went with 85

 

[caneguy16]

Hey im new on here i just bought a beater 95 eclipse. the head gasket blew so im replacing it i also had to replace the head because is didnt pressure test good and it was warped and valves were leaking.

but im replacing it so i got the torque specs, i need to get the bolt torquing sequence. If someone could help me out with that i would appriciate that.

i also need the torquing specs and sequence for the cams. Please

When putting the head on i make sure the timing marks are beside each other on the cam gears, right? were do i line up the crank at i see a mark but what do i line it up with?

and if there is anything else for me to know about putting this head on i will appricate anything thrown at me thank you.

 

[4UH8ERS]

Hey im new on here i just bought a beater 95 eclipse. the head gasket blew so im replacing it i also had to replace the head because is didnt pressure test good and it was warped and valves were leaking.

but im replacing it so i got the torque specs, i need to get the bolt torquing sequence. If someone could help me out with that i would appriciate that.

i also need the torquing specs and sequence for the cams. Please

When putting the head on i make sure the timing marks are beside each other on the cam gears, right? were do i line up the crank at i see a mark but what do i line it up with?

and if there is anything else for me to know about putting this head on i will appricate anything thrown at me thank you.

POST #3 has the bolt sequence. Did you just miss that?

2.OL DOHC TORQUE PROCEDURE WITH MLS GASKET INSTALLATION

NOTE :THE 4 SHORT BOLTS ARE PLACED IN THE CORNERS.

A. Torque all center bolts to 34 Nm (25 Ft Lbs), Torque the 4 corner bolts to 27 Nm (20 Ft Lbs).

B. Torque all center bolts to 68 Nm (50 Ft Lbs), Torque the 4 corner bolts to 47 Nm (35 Ft Lbs).

C. Re-torque all center bolts to 68 Nm (50 Ft Lbs), Re-torque the 4 corner bolts to 47 Nm (35 Ft Lbs).

D. Tighten all bolts in the specified sequence (Fig 1) an additional 90°(1/4 turn).

Make sure you use these new specs when you replace your headgasket.
Doug

If you Don't have a haynes or chiltons manual go get one immediatley. It will explain how to align the cams and crank. although it has been posted before and there is a write up on 2gnt.