Haltech ECU or AEM Standalone

[TSi92]

Originally posted by Tevenor
Please tell me that this thread will at some point come back to topic.

Raiders kicks ass!!!

 

[TSi92]

Well, back on topic... What you guys think of the J&S safeguard?

 

[autronicDSM]

I finally found that article I was going to post for you guys. http://www.autospeed.com/A_0348/page1.html

Read it and then make your own decision about Safeguard. I have a standalone and no knock sensor and everything is just great. It's all in the tuning I guess.

 

[TSi92]

Very intersting article. I guess J&S safeguard sucks hehehe. Another thing i read (AEM boards) that the 2G sensor is "better" than the 1G sensor because it can pick more knock. I guess it actually picks more false knock then.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by Kdogg435

What kind of fuel management are you going to be using?

ProEFI. With that you can use the knock input to retard timing or not. I don't know if I will or not. I'm still a ##### though.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Wow, they edit out "pu$$y" now. Pretty soon we will hardly get to insult eachother like adults at all.

 

[98Turbbo420A]

I hope you guys arn't assuming that I have a 4G63, that would be false, it's a 420A. Like I said this is uncharted territory at the moment so that's why I'm posing this question.

Now, someone mentioned that AEM hasen't made a EMS yet for my car, I wasn't able to call them but I noticed it said Eclipse 97-99 on there website, am I to assume that this is just the turbo cars? Also, has anyone had any experience with a DFI system? If so how does it work and is it as easy to tune as a standalone?

 

[GoFastTSI]

Yes, we didn't at all notice the 420A in your username which sticks out like a turd in a punch bowl. Thanks for clearing the air on that.

 

[GrocMax]

Originally posted by TSi92
Very intersting article. I guess J&S safeguard sucks hehehe. Another thing i read (AEM boards) that the 2G sensor is "better" than the 1G sensor because it can pick more knock. I guess it actually picks more false knock then.

Didn't read the J&S article or the AEM msg board very closely, did you?

Yep, that J&S 'sucks' because they used the wrong sensor, and the 2G sensor is 'better' because it matches the AEM electronics, and the 1G knock sensor won't work at all with the AEM.

 

[autronicDSM]

I don't know why all of a sudden people jumped on AEM like 'they have to have it because it plugs in', if you're buying standalone, AEM or not, you better know how to tune. If you can do that, knock shouldn't be a big deal and you don't need Safeguard...just my $0.02

GrocMax, salesman said it could be wrong sensor, probably to cover his ass and make J&S look decent otherwise why would you supply a wrong sensor for testing, c'mon

 

[GrocMax]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
I don't know why all of a sudden people jumped on AEM like 'they have to have it because it plugs in', if you're buying standalone, AEM or not, you better know how to tune. If you can do that, knock shouldn't be a big deal and you don't need Safeguard...just my $0.02

GrocMax, salesman said it could be wrong sensor, probably to cover his ass and make J&S look decent otherwise why would you supply a wrong sensor for testing, c'mon

I heartily agree that knock control isn't 100% necessary, especially if you control fuel quality, such as a race-only car. It saves parts on pump gas cars, all it takes is one bad tank of gas when you are really pushing it on 91-93 octane fuel. Not many car enthusiasts have the ear to be able to pick up light to moderate detonation while behind the drivers wheel of a fairly noisy car, which can quickly lead to hard preignition and meltdown. Only takes a few dozen full cycles of hard preignition to do some serious damage. In that case some form of knock control is worth the money.

My own personal experiences with the J&S unit is so opposite of that (in referance to audible knock vs. unit activity) I'm convinced something was very very wrong with his setup.

 

[autronicDSM]

Could you post how Safeguard interfaces with a stand alone? How do you hook up crank signal and ignition o/p? Does it go from standalone to J&S and then to coils, etc?

 

[GrocMax]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
Could you post how Safeguard interfaces with a stand alone? How do you hook up crank signal and ignition o/p? Does it go from standalone to J&S and then to coils, etc?

Yes, ECU to J&S to ignitor/module or MSD box. Connections for TPS, power, ground, and some models have an internal MAP sensor. Distributor, two channel and 4 channel models. Two channel was dropped awhile back. Can select individual or group/channel/global retard, sensitivity, and 10 or 20 degree total retard, ignition trigger edge, cylinder count etc. The unit doesn't react to background noise outside of the ignition window, so false knock isn't an issue, unless you have like a really bad rod bearing or something that would make a LOT of noise near TDC/BDC.

There are adjustments for low TPS and MAP pressure threshold on models that have the MAP sensor. Very simple to install and use.

 

[autronicDSM]

Sounds good, thanks. I wasn't aware that J&S listens only in ignition window. Maybe it would be worth investing into one once I get big turbo.

 

[HighPsi91]

Hows that saying go Groc..? Someones slumming?

 

[STEVENICH]

Join the Autronic Forum and ask the ?'s directly to the company and it's distributors.

www.aussieimportsllc.com/forum

 

[autronicDSM]

Groc, how does J&S affect loging of timing when you're knocking?

 

[GrocMax]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
Groc, how does J&S affect loging of timing when you're knocking?

There is a way to log, the output to the monitor is a voltage signal, I don't know if it is a square wave or what, you'd have to talk to John at J&S to decipher what voltage equals '2 deg retard cyl #1/1st channel' etc. but for all practical purposes logging isn't done, you have no idea how much is happening except for the LED monitor.

Each engine combo will have to be set for sensitivity- my personal car needs sensitivity set rather low, another car that was set up similar is able to use a rather high amount of sensitivity without false triggering. Once you find out where your combo wants to be, by verifying audible knock and sensitivity response, you can now work on timing tables- a couple of LED blips on the monitor here and there tell you you're just about right, high activity means back off a little. Now that you have your timing optimized you can remove the unit if desired.

Same priciples apply to an ECU that has knock control built in, the nice thing about this unit is it is easy to set up so you know right when the engine is on the edge, no degree in EE required.

On my car once it was all set up I rarely saw any LED activity at the track at high boost on race fuel, except for one run when the damn thing lit up like a christmas tree and immediately started misfiring- the TPS connector had popped off on the 2/3 shift. That is why I like knock control, when something happens that may damage your engine, it happens in an instant.

 

[autronicDSM]

Originally posted by GrocMax


Each engine combo will have to be set for sensitivity- my personal car needs sensitivity set rather low, another car that was set up similar is able to use a rather high amount of sensitivity without false triggering. Once you find out where your combo wants to be, by verifying audible knock and sensitivity response, you can now work on timing tables- a couple of LED blips on the monitor here and there tell you you're just about right, high activity means back off a little. Now that you have your timing optimized you can remove the unit if desired.

Remove it after spending $500 on it I'll stick to using Snap On stethoscope on a dyno it's cheaper.

 

[John J&S]

GrocMax: Thanks for pointing out that the SafeGuard uses a knock window.

Here's a quote from the Autospeed article:

"...Turbo Tune (Adelaide, Australia) dyno-tested a Safeguard unit on a VL Holden Commodore Turbo. The car was running high boost and advanced timing - enough to make it detonate when the non-intercooled air hit the combustion chambers."

This is a recipe for pre-ignition. By definition, pre-ignition occurs before the spark event. It does not need a spark, so retarding the timing won't do any good.

The knock window blanks out pre-ignition. That's probably why the operator could hear it, but the SafeGuard couldn't. And don't give me b.s. about how you can't hear pre-ignition. I've seen it on an oscilloscope, and heard it at the same time. It sounded just like knock, but it was happening before the spark. This was on a '91 Mustang, with a 7 psi non intercooled Paxton supercharger.

During development, I set up two knock windows. One to detect knock, the other to detect pre-ignition. At the time, I didn't realize that retarding the timing was no help. Thinking really is hard work.

 

[3literpwr]

AEM did not design thier system, it was a british company GEMS...........

I would go with which ever one of them had the best anti-lag program... BANG BANG!! pop! pop! bang! bwaaaaahhhhh!

Larry Parker
#622 scca club rally.........

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by 3literpwr
AEM did not design thier system, it was a british company GEMS...........

Was it GEMS or was it Jason Seblis and Pro Efi?

 

[3literpwr]

Gems from what I have been told...... Also when you downloaded the software from aems website last year the file name was something like
gemsv1.05.exe or some shite......

Larry