got something keeping car from starting

[91gsxdsm]

I have a 1990 plymouth laser 2.0 non turbo as a daily driver. I go to leave work and get in the car and it starts and stops right away and hasn't started since. This is the first time I've had any trouble like this . Well after finding out I have spark and doing some searches on here, I've come to a conclusion that something is keeping the fuel pump from coming on, and the injectors to work. The car starts with starting fluid, check engine light comes on like normal then goes off, it doesn't stay on to indicate a problem. I've jumped the wire thats hangs near the battery and the fuel pump comes on and started getting fuel out the return line spot of the fuel rail, but the car still wont start unless it has some starter fluid sprayed into the intake. I don't know what to check and haven't seen any thing specific in the search. Thanks in advanced for any help given.

 

[underpressure25]

Can you get ahold of a noid light so you can see if your injectors are working? Or just use a voltmeter to see if your getting voltage at the injectors while the car is being started. Also check fuel psi.
Goodluck

 

[FLiPk614]

Noid light? I have a similar problem... I need to see if my injectors are working. Where could i go to get mine tested? How much will it cost?

 

[femmeDSM]

Ahh, the dreaded No Start.

Check out this Tech Article if you haven't already: http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217951

You've done a good job so far with diagnostics, but this might shed some light on other issues (like testing injectors).

I'd recommend getting your hands on a Haynes manual if you don't have one already.

The best way to diagnose and cure a No Start is to take things one step at a time...

When you add the starting fluid, can you keep the car running for any length of time after you've used up the fluid?
If you can, this would rule out your fuel pump. If not, we need to check that out further.

On a 1g, the fuel pump turns on with the key in the START or Run position (not ON). Fuel Pump power is controlled by the MPI circuit (relay under the dash, next to the ECU, and fuse on the + battery terminal).
If you can get the pump to turn on via the check connector, chances are it's probably coming on while you're cranking, too (stock pumps are quiet, and the engine noise while cranking will drown it out most of the time). Have a buddy crank the car while you put your ear up to the opened filler neck on the tank. You should hear it kick on. If not, we can diagnose that seperately.

Not to worry No Starts aren't as hard to fix as you'd think....

 

[91gsxdsm]

I really like your write up, however as I said before its not specific to what my car is doing. Maybe more info on my part can help you (because Ive apparently pissed off the dsm gods!). When this didn't start ,I did the normal mechanic thing, Do I have this or that....and so on. Well I used starting fluid, it cranked right up and then died(assuming) after starter fluid burned off. So my next step was do I have fuel? I actually did what you suggested and didn't hear the fuel pump at all, so I went for further confirmation , no fuel coming out of the return line AT ALL! So I got ready to pull the pump , add a new one and be done. I remembered reading about the jump wire , so I tried it and low and behold fuel starts coming out of the dry return line. After reading on I found some problems other no-starts were having with the relay on the firewall near the pump jump wire, so I used a known good relay to check it and still same problem , no change in anything as if the original is in proper working order. I can jump the fuel pump to come on,and hear and see it working properly when trying to crank the car, but the injectors aren't putting any of the fuel in the chamber. car doesn't stumble or try at all UNLESS any starter fluid is sprayed into the intake. My tach is now somtimes jumping when it cranks on starter fluid , un-normal like engine sounds as if its right at 1000rpms but tach is "literally" bouncing 3k to 4k but the motor isn't doing it, just the gauge. It has never done this before and I don't know if its related to the current "electrical dsm curse". This is where im stuck. I've tried alot of different things, newer,properly gapped plugs/wires. Know the coil is firing good because it had a good ark , when using the screw driver in the plug to ground trick. The only thing I haven't tried yet is testing ohms at the injectors, which im sure i wont find anything. Sorry for the long write up but i hope it helps someone think of somthing to help me ! thanks guys

 

[GTM]

I really like your write up, however as I said before its not specific to what my car is doing.
...
My tach is now somtimes jumping when it cranks on starter fluid , un-normal like engine sounds as if its right at 1000rpms but tach is "literally" bouncing 3k to 4k but the motor isn't doing it, just the gauge. It has never done this before and I don't know if its related to the current "electrical dsm curse". This is where im stuck. I've tried alot of different things, newer,properly gapped plugs/wires. Know the coil is firing good because it had a good ark , when using the screw driver in the plug to ground trick. The only thing I haven't tried yet is testing ohms at the injectors, which im sure i wont find anything. Sorry for the long write up but i hope it helps someone think of somthing to help me ! thanks guys

Very well written article by femmeDSM this was the first I'd seen it. Do consider that it would be possible to write book chapters or even complete books on No Start conditions. Heavens this could deserve a whole new forum or perhaps Part 1, 2, 3, etc. for problems that defy diagnosis.

I commend you on your DIY attempts and reporting new observations, in this case the Tach bouncing is significant. The 2 things that immediately come to mind that will cause this are low battery voltage or a failing ECU. The fact you have tested and correctly identified fuel pump operation eleminates this first step. You have also established you have spark and the other criteria to make it run by using start fluid. This leads me to believe you have no fuel injector circuit present. Please understand I'm no DSM expert and as such cannot help you with specifics other than what I've read and learned mostly here on DSMtuners. You can read my profile so you know I'm not totally off the wall.

There may be a fuse involved, there may be dropping resistors involved, there may be a loose harness connection and I believe there are tests written in the manual on how to carry out this aspect. Now for the ugly news, you need to consider that the ECU is failing to send the signal to the fuel pump and the injector circuits. You have provided the evidence with the starting fluid and pump tests. If you have some way to retrieve fault codes which are stored in the ECU it _may_ give up a code as part of a self test though not all ECUs are smart enough to thoroughly check their own health. The alternative is to find, beg, borrow another ECU which is correct for your car and plug it in.

Keep us posted, ask questions, hopefully someone with knowledge of the above affected circuits can jump in and be more specific.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[femmeDSM]

My tach is now somtimes jumping when it cranks on starter fluid , un-normal like engine sounds as if its right at 1000rpms but tach is "literally" bouncing 3k to 4k but the motor isn't doing it, just the gauge.

Pull the ECU (or swap with a known good unit if you have a donor car handy). Check for capacitor leakage and board damage (will show up as either chemical trace marks, black/burned marks, or other similar discolorations, sometimes accompanied by a strange smell).

The jumping tach is a telltale sign that something's fishy with the ECU.

Is it even powering up? When you turn the key ON, does the CEL illuminate for ~5 seconds? GTM had a great suggestion, as usual - do you have any way of pulling codes or info from the ECU? You can use an analog voltmeter for this if you have to, just to check for the ECU's "heartbeat". I'm pretty sure a search would turn up the proper way to do this...If not, I'll see if I can recall how to set this up.

Good luck

 

[steve]

You can use an analog voltmeter for this if you have to, just to check for the ECU's "heartbeat". I'm pretty sure a search would turn up the proper way to do this...If not, I'll see if I can recall how to set this up.

Heartbeat is what you get from the diagnostic pin when the ECU is working but doesn't have any error codes. It's a on-off repeating pattern put out on pin 1 of the DLC on 1G ECUs when everything is normal.

Steve

 

[91gsxdsm]

Pull the ECU (or swap with a known good unit if you have a donor car handy). Check for capacitor leakage and board damage (will show up as either chemical trace marks, black/burned marks, or other similar discolorations, sometimes accompanied by a strange smell).

The jumping tach is a telltale sign that something's fishy with the ECU.

Is it even powering up? When you turn the key ON, does the CEL illuminate for ~5 seconds? GTM had a great suggestion, as usual - do you have any way of pulling codes or info from the ECU? You can use an analog voltmeter for this if you have to, just to check for the ECU's "heartbeat". I'm pretty sure a search would turn up the proper way to do this...If not, I'll see if I can recall how to set this up.

Good luck

Sorry it's been a while, work has increased. The check engine light is normal, on then off around 5 seconds. As far as the ecu I haven't checked the internal board yet, I will keep you posted and see if we can help add to a no-start problem/solution. Are there any other idea's or a way to test the injector circuit? Thanks