Going from supra sidemount to a fmic a few tuning questions

[DJ23GSX]

Just as the title says i will be going to a fmic this summer because i am heatsoaking my supra sidemount. My Main question is what is a fmic going to do to my idc's? Right now before i heatsoak i am around 93% idc's on my evo 560's with 0-3 counts of knock. After heatsoak sets in i have to add a bunch of fuel just to keep knock around 10-15 and my idc's soar to 115%.

Will the fmic allow me to lean out the safc and lower my idc's at the same boost level the supra i/c is heatsoaking at (20psi on a s16g)?

I found a really good deal on a set of 650's but how much would i benifit from them if a fmic will bring the idc's of my 560's back under 90%?

 

[spectr019]

I was running a supra side mount for awhile and I never had any heat soaking problems, and I thought that it was incredibly hard to heat soak those things!! But hey, if it's happening, it's happening!! Throwing in a front mount will automatically lean out the ratio just because of its location and the resulting air temps, and then yes you will safely be able to lean it out a bit more. As for the IDC, I couldn't tell ya personally about those because I don't have much experience with them. But yes, you will be safer with the front mount. Good luck!!

Ben

 

[zippyshoe]

Even if you upgrade to a FMIC, I would still upgrade to higher-flow injectors. Its generally recommended that you try and keep your max injector duty cycle at 80% or less. You definitely do not want to see duty cycles over 100% - when they are more than 100% you are guaranteed to be running lean.

 

[pneumo]

Typically a fmic lets you flow more air, so that might bring idc back up again. I have an E316G on my daily driver with a small fmic, boost is set to 20psi and I'm seeing 88%idc on Denso 660's.

 

[Echo5Zulu]

Out of curiosity how did you verify that its heatsoaking? Are you just checking it with your hand or assuming thats what the problem is? When it started heatsoaking have you trying cooling it off with a water sprayer and running again to verify heat soak? Also how warm was the ambient air temperature?

 

[DJ23GSX]

Out of curiosity how did you verify that its heatsoaking? Are you just checking it with your hand or assuming thats what the problem is? When it started heatsoaking have you trying cooling it off with a water sprayer and running again to verify heat soak? Also how warm was the ambient air temperature?

I've verified its heatsoak by making multiple runs back to back and logging them.

I can usually make 2 back to back 3rd gear pulls at 20psi with 0-3 counts of knock then any more pulls after that i get knock and it goes up after every pull. After a few minutes of highway cruising the i/c cools off and i can make another pull with 0 knock. It happens in the summer and in the winter but i can't seem to stop creeping to 20-22psi on the really cold mornings.

I made about 4-5 back to back 3rd gear pulls today at 18psi with 40* temps outside without any knock.

I guess 20psi on pump gas (93 octane) is a bit too much for the mkiv i/c.

 

[alex99gst]

If, in the meantime, you get a FMIC before the injectors, I think you should fab up some ducting to go from the stock SMIC location up through the UICP hole going to the intake. This is how I had mine setup and I really think the cold air helped lower my knock a nice bit. I don't have logs to back this up, but I was running 18 psi on the 450's and not getting any knock with a 16g. Just a thought if you are being cautious about knock/IDC.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I had a nice air duct coming from under the car right up to the filter box i made but it got ripped off this winter with all the snow we got. i did notice a difference before and after it but i still heatsoaked with it.

I did some before and after logs and it dropped intake temps at the maf within a few degrees of ambient in the dead of summer where i was seeing any where from 15-30* above ambient with just the open filter under the hood.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

WOW 10-15 counts knock! Dude knock is your worst enemy. I think you're trying to push your car too hard for the mods you have at this time. FMIC with help for sure, but idc should never go over 85% to be safe, and 10-15 counts of knock is so BAD. If 'I' see anything over 5 counts knock on my car, I get off the gas immediately until I can re-tune. 10-15 counts is scary bad! If you see that much knock you need to tune your car down, or else you're going to have motor problems.

If you can only do 1 mod at a time do injectors 1st, and then if you don't see any knock with the SMIC then you'll be OK. BUT get Injectors 1st, cause 115% idc is insane! And even after adding bigger injectors 'I' still wouldn't go to 20psi without a FMIC. BUT rally as long as you dont get knock you should be good.

I ran my E3 turbo with very similar mods to yours, except with a small FMIC, and I ran 19psi with 0 knock all day long.

 

[DSMunknown]

Can someone explain how exactly duty cycle is able to reach over 100 percent?

 

[DJ23GSX]

WOW 10-15 counts knock! Dude knock is your worst enemy. I think you're trying to push your car too hard for the mods you have at this time. FMIC with help for sure, but idc should never go over 85% to be safe, and 10-15 counts of knock is so BAD. If 'I' see anything over 5 counts knock on my car, I get off the gas immediately until I can re-tune. 10-15 counts is scary bad! If you see that much knock you need to tune your car down, or else you're going to have motor problems.

If you can only do 1 mod at a time do injectors 1st, and then if you don't see any knock with the SMIC then you'll be OK. BUT get Injectors 1st, cause 115% idc is insane! And even after adding bigger injectors 'I' still wouldn't go to 20psi without a FMIC. BUT rally as long as you dont get knock you should be good.

I ran my E3 turbo with very similar mods to yours, except with a small FMIC, and I ran 19psi with 0 knock all day long.

You should read this thread. Its got some good info on tuning with knock
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47907&pp=25

I don't run it when i start heaksoaking and see all that knock.


I was tuning today with the warmer temps outside (65*) and i was able to lean out the safc quite a bit and got the idc's back to 90% with 0 knock at 20psi on a 3rd gear pull. My idc's are low to mid 80% range untill about 6k then they jump right up to 90% I don't think it should jump that far seeing my 5k 6k and 7k settings are all within 1% of each other on the safc.

I ended up buying the 650's but i am a little hesitant to try and tune them with just a safc. I get 20-21* timing with the 560's and 0 knock so i would probly have a bit higher timing with the 650's because i would have to lean them out even more than the 560's.

 

[zippyshoe]

Can someone explain how exactly duty cycle is able to reach over 100 percent?

A duty cycle over 100% simply means that the ECU has calculated a time period to turn on the injectors that exceeds the total time that is available. For example, suppose the ECU sees x lbs/min of airflow at some instant in time and calculates an injector on time of 15 milliseconds based on airflow, throttle position, etc. However, based on engine rpm, the amount of time available may only be 10 milliseconds. This implies a duty cycle of 15/10 = 150%. In reality, the injectors never have an opportunity to turn off, and the ECU has no way of injecting sufficient fuel to maintain the target AFR that the ECU is trying to achieve. The only way for the ECU to provide sufficient fuel is by providing it with higher flow injectors that can supply more fuel in less on time. Hope this is a little clearer than mud.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

You should read this thread. Its got some good info on tuning with knock
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...?t=47907&pp=25

OH MY gOD!
I don't know the person who posted that, but I would never, ever, tune with only Air/Fuel ratio, and exhaust temp. !!!EVER!!!

You should research knock, detonation, and preignition.
Google it, and only read articles from reputable people. It's very important

Detonation/knock is what happens when your tune is unstable. A little is OK and shouldn't harm anything, but too much too often is real bad. Knock is your engines way of telling you that you need to ease up. The environment that you want inside of the combustion chamber is a steady, even, controlled, burn of the fuel. This gives you a even expansion of pressure pushing down on the piston top. Detonation (or DET)is the opposite. Detonation is a quick violent explosion. It happens when pressure and heat causes fuel fumes to explode inside of the combustion chamber due to lack of octane. That sudden, sharp, explosion is Baaaaad. Instead of a nice slow burn and even pressure pushing down on the piston... DET is a hard, quick, explosion, that creates a Sharp HIT on the piston top. DET hits so hard and fast that it doesn't give the piston time to react. That sharp hit is bad. Your Cars ECU reads those hits of DET, and displays that info to you as Knock.

....That's what I can tell you about knock without writing a novel.
Also heres a little help from a old thread. Read post 20 on my quick advice for tuning.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=50454578#post50454578

L8tr!

 

[daren_p]

Looks like you got the new injectors & 650's are defently doable on the SAFC. Thats about the size limit for a piggyback but plenty people run that setup. With your current injectors & a fmic its hard to say where your IDC's will end up. While the fmic should allow you to run a slightly leaner air/fuel ratio because of the cooler intake charge, bringing down your IDC's. The fmic will probably also flow better then the SMIC did so it will increase your VE, therefore creating more airflow for the same amount of boost, which will bring the IDC's back up. I know when I switched from my HRC SMIC setup to my Victory Performance setup, I gained abit over 2lb/min at the same amount of boost.

 

[DJ23GSX]

It looks like my aeromotive afpr was leaking. i think i have fixed it and will make a few more runs tomorrow to see where i stand.

 

[daren_p]

It looks like my aeromotive afpr was leaking. i think i have fixed it and will make a few more runs tomorrow to see where i stand.

If you haven't already, make sure to put some pipe dope or teflon sealent on the adjusting bolt threads as this is a common spot for a leak.