from 12's to 11's

[awd4u]

hey guy's just want opinions how to get my car to 11's on pump 94 w/water meth, i ran 12.7 at 108mph, 16g, 660 injectors, stock intake, stock exhaust mani, dsmlink v3, racegas. stock bottom end, and mildy done head with hks 272's... i want to run 11's consitantly, im doing 2.3 stroker, intake mani, exhaust mani, 1050cc injectors, iam looking to get FP green turbo, but not 100% sure what would be good. easier to get to 11's the better. this car is street driven mostly but i also take it to the track often. give me some opinions if i can hit 11's or do i need to add or make changes to the build. thanks!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

But where do you land on your power curve after the shift? NLTS would not be a bad idea, I would add more fuel, work on the tune and up the boost as well.

You have link. Boost by gear is an option so you don't light up the tires.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

ok, I know im tired and all but wtf is NLTS?

Get yourself a good drag radial on a 15" rim. Dump the front sway bar or get quick disconnect links for the track. Then take a day of T&T at the track and turn your rears all the way to soft, then all the way to hard. You will see just how much suspension plays into effect there. Then once you see that, you can adjust it to find that sweet spot of weight transfer you want. If this is a track only car, then I would send you a completely different route, but street driven, start testing different setups and record your data. and to get yourself an idea of your contact patch on a launch, put a piece of paper about a foot in front of all 4 tires on the street. (do not do this on a crowded street, find an unused road for this.) Then launch your car. As u come to the top of first, shut it down. Write on each paper what tire its by in case they blow around at all, and look and see what your tread leaves for marks on the paper. The dirt from your tires will show up on the white paper. See what your "footprint" looks like. that will give you an idea if you need to adjust your alignment to compensate for your shocks/spring rate/ or lowered stance you may have on the car.

The engine is such a small part of tuning a car its sad to think of how many people never realize the full potential of their cars because they dont know how to tune more than the motor. There really is a science to setting up a suspension and making the car do what the engine is trying to make it do. Everything plays into effect on this too. The ambient temp, the track temp, the humidity, the barometric pressure, your tires air pressure, your tires themselves (hard compound or soft) your spring rate, your damper, your bound and rebound on the struts, your gearing, altitude above sea level, i mean the list goes on. It all plays into what your car is capable of with the setup you currently have. Thats why drag teams spend nearly a week setting up and prepping their cars for the big day. Its also why you see pit crews making changes between passes. They are often not doing anything to the engine tune but making adjustments to gearing, tire pressure and so on. And with IRS its harder than setting a live axle suspension as there are more things to adjust and properly set.

As I said, talk around at the local tracks, who knows, maybe you will find a guy with a shop willing to teach you about racing and tuning in return for some wrench time. I know I learned by asking around at the track and someone teaching me by doing work for them. Hands on experience is the best IMHO.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

It is a clutch switch activated rev-limiter so the throttle plate does not have to close and you can keep boost up between shifts.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

ok, so it acts as a studder box. Never take your foot off the throttle even shifting. I guess that would help, but that would put a hefty strain on your drive train tho would it not? I have seen guys at the track with OEM transmission power shifting and not using a clutch at all after their launch. Then there is the dog box's that are basically the same. But the OEM trans guys end up eating a trans before a full season passes normally.

OP, my suggestion is going to be to get more seat time on your setup without anything else. Then once u dial in your tune, and you are pulling constant ET's within a quarter second of each other, then start to add the extra's. Refine your driving and your tuning and then add on is my advice. As I said, I can hear your powerband fall off in your video's which means your over reving it, and I can see your shifting leaves something to be desired too. I would practice those first, then go from there. And try launching in 2nd gear sometime. You may learn a little more clutch control and learn to leave on a lower RPM than redline. Myself im hoping to get some video's of mine at the track once the grove opens up. I bought the car as they closed and wasn't taking it to the track in a stock mannor. New parts are in, and time to tnt come spring. Check back in spring and bring some video's of your own. Compare em and see where you think you can improve based on what others are doing.

Your best critic is going to be yourself, but you have to be honest with yourself first. I tend to lack in the engine tuning aspect but dial my suspension in great. So now I have someone to tune my engine for me. .

Good luck, and be sure to post us some results. I would love to see some before and after runs. Video 3 passes. 1 all the way soft on your suspension, 1 all the way hard, and then 1 when u have her more dialed in to where you like. Just so you can see the difference, and we can see the difference it has made to you. And just a side note, most real suspension tuners will not have the same setting on any of the 4 corners. And if you ask why, its because of TQ. your chassis will flex, normally to one side more than the other. Its more apparent on non transverse mounted engines however.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

ok, so it acts as a studder box. Never take your foot off the throttle even shifting. I guess that would help, but that would put a hefty strain on your drive train tho would it not? I have seen guys at the track with OEM transmission power shifting and not using a clutch at all after their launch. Then there is the dog box's that are basically the same. But the OEM trans guys end up eating a trans before a full season passes normally.

NLTS = No Lift To Shift. It is a clutch cut rev limiter. When you push the clutch in the RPM's drop to a preset (and selectable) secondary rev limit, regardless of the throttle, so you can keep your right foot planted. It will help with shift speeds a little.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

NLTS = No Lift To Shift. It is a clutch cut rev limiter. When you push the clutch in the RPM's drop to a preset (and selectable) secondary rev limit, regardless of the throttle, so you can keep your right foot planted. It will help with shift speeds a little.

Yeah I got that. Its a 2 step basically. It may help someone with seat time, but honestly I will question if it will help someone without a proper tune in the car. I see him breaking the tires loose in gears more that way instead of lowering his ET. Especially on that 1st video. The second one where it says he hits 12's showed me he blew his shift. It looked like 3nd gear fell flat on its face. I will give him credit on running a 12.9X with it, but that wheel spin killed his ET. He didnt even try and peddle it out to hook. If he has enough power to spin 4 like that off the line, run the water box and burn em down. Or use something prior to getting in the lane to heat em up. I will bet a softer compound tire would benefit him a TON.

 

[laser90]

im reving to 6000 rpm area because the 16g run's out of steam in the higher rpm. it drops efficiency at 6800 rpm, dyno proven on my behalf.

My 16G setup held a flat power band til about 7.2k. I revved my setup til 8k. When I was revving to 7 my car would trap and et 13.2-13.4@107-108. My next pass I was frustrated with not running 12s for some reason I decided to hold it out til 8k and bam 12.99@110. Although I was FWD with different gearing maybe holding the RPMs out a bit longer would help drop the et.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

He has not given us any detail on the components in the head tho. So if his valve springs are not setup for the higher RPM's and the retainers and locks are not, he runs a greater chance to float a valve, and that is not a good thing in these engines. Which is why I was sticking away from increased RPM's. If he has the proper setup for those then sure, but there are more that play into effect on that even. Such as how long it takes him to shift from gear to gear and how much of a drop off he has in the power band before he is back in the throttle. If you can shift it fast enough and smooth enough, you can be back in boost shifting at 7200 to hit the lower range of your power band and get the most out of your tune. A set of 272's normally have a powerband from the 3800rpm-6900rpm range.

the dyno they show on brian crowers page is approx 4500-6800rpm. And thats with the spring and retainer kit allowing for longer and higher RPM pulls at 22psi. And it peaks around 6500 and basically flatlines from there. So shifting by 7k would be ideal to get yourself to around 4500-5k after your shift to keep making power. BrianCrower.com | RunBC.com // Mitsubishi // 4G63

Running the 280's would draw the power band out a bit more on the top end, but not by much. Only adding about another 500rpm's to it. But i dont think running his R's up higher will in turn benefit his ET. As I have said before, properly tuned suspension and proper tires would likely benefit him the most.

OP, what tires are you running? And how much of a back ground do u have in drag racing? I mean no disrespect by that, but knowing a better baseline would help direct you a bit.

 

[95 tsi 95 gst]

take some wieght off take the dash out and remove brackets and the ac system too

 

[awd4u]

the tires are Michelin mxm4, 225/45/17 is the size i posted it wrong earlier, iv been racing for 2 years, but i was always told i don't have to shift really quick to get a better time, dont know if that's true.. i ran 13.2 year before with pump gas, and safcII no head work, i think u shoud have ran alittle faster this year.. but my head has, 2g revised lifters, hks 272's, HD a1 headstuds, hks stopper heeadgasket, mitsu valves, stock retainers, stock springs.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

Ok, so for tires, get yourself a set of cheap american racing rims or something just for the track. Then pick up a set of drag radials for them. U can throw em on before you leave for the track and still be street legal, just dont use em in rain.

As for your valve train. I would not push your shifts much higher. Reason being, you have OEM parts there. The springs are not as stiff as an aftermarket, and the retainers and locks are heavier. Those will cause you to float a valve at to high of an RPM. And if you float a valve, you may as well kiss the head work goodbye and the cylinder. Not to mention the spring will be more prone to failure at higher RPM's.

Faster shifts cause you to lose less momentum. And thus it will also keep your RPM's up higher after your shift is complete. Thus getting you into power that much faster. Over revving your engine will also make it harder to shift your car. There is a certain sweet spot in your power band where you can actually shift from gear to gear without using your clutch. Good drivers can do that, its called power shifting. Not saying you are a bad driver if you can not, but some of the best drivers I know, dont use a clutch after they are in 2nd. As for fast or slow shifts, its all about the driver. But the quicker the shift the faster you are back in power.

My old 1st gen GSX eclipse I broke the trans on power shifting. Snapped the ear off the shift rail and it was stuck in 2nd gear. Found it to be a common issue at the time, but it happened under a hard launch for me and broke as i went into 2nd and would not come out until I opened the case. So its a word of caution there. Things like NLTS and power shifting can break things.

My shifting was done by already pulling back on the shifter before I let off the throttle, so as soon as I let off a little it would pop out of gear, and the clutch would just make it to slow it down enough to grab the next gear, then dumped the clutch and was back on the power. Again its all about learning what works for you tho, and getting your setup tuned for your own driving style.

What works in setup for me, may not work for you. And vise versa. How ever, someone more experienced may be able to take your car and make it do things you cant. Happens to me all the time. For the life of me, i could not get my Dakota RT to hook. Guy that bought it, ran a 8.31 with after an hour of dialing it in for him. Now that was a 423ci small block twin turbo dodge dakota RT, but he could drive it better than me, and I built it. Turned out I didnt have my rear suspension angles right, but again, suspension made the difference.

2 years is not a long time to be drag racing. It may seem like it, but really its not unless your at the track everyday. Myself I have been on the tracks for nearly 15 years. Since I was 14 with my uncle's and their buddy's muscle cars. I learned a lot from them. Later my first car I had no idea how to setup right. took nearly 3 year to dial in for me. Since then I have learned the ins and outs of proper setup and what each aspect has to do with the other. It takes time. Dont be discouraged if your not getting the results you want right away. Keep at it, and do a lot of test n tunes.

Your current setup should net you 11's. it may be high 11's but 11's none the less. Keep at it and see if you cant get into the low 12's even. if you can hit 12.0-12.20 i would be happy. And from there its just baby steps to get you into the 11's. A bigger turbo may solve your issues, but it may create more issues, like being able to keep the power of the larger turbo on the track. Thats where that pesky suspension and tire combo will come into play. Its a delicate balancing act at the track. I will still stick with work with what you have before you upgrade anymore.

 

[awd4u]

race season is done here in canada, my car is going right to the shop when i pull the car cover off of it. 2.3 stroker, meth, exhst mani, intake mani, but i just don't know what turbo set up is gona suit me the best. i daily drive the car in summer, and i hit up the track alot too. i have an option between the FP gt3076r, or the fp green. iam aiming for around 450whp. and thank's alot for your information man, i appreciate it.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

Well I would think a 50trim like what I have with the right supporting mods would gain you about that 450awhp range your looking for. Right now I have a completely stock engine. No cams, nothing to it so far other than injectors and my 50 trim. So before you make your choice to get a new turbo, see what others do. I plan to hit the track in a couple months when it reopens here, and I will post some info on my passes and video. Honestly I have an expectation to pull closer to what your doing now, and its a daily driver for me too. On pump gas with about 20-25psi boost. Stock bottom end and stock top end. My goal with this setup is 12.50's before cams and a shot. The engine I have in my car is to be a daily driven one. I plan to build another motor and race prep it, but thats a whole different thread.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Pass on the 50 trim and get a Twin-scroll HX35. It's cheaper, spools better and has better top end and get better tires. Those tires are garbage.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

Pass on the 50 trim and get a Twin-scroll HX35. It's cheaper, spools better and has better top end and get better tires. Those tires are garbage.

my 50 trim cost me 350 bux total. So idk how much cheaper your going to pick one up than that. My 50trim is starting to spool at about 2800rpm's with a stock motor. Im set at 15psi right now (wastegate spring setting) and am in full boost about 4k. With a larger duration cam I would expect to start to build boost about 2500 and max boost about 3200. Not to mention that stroker motor of his will have added air volume coming out to spool it up even faster than mine.

Those tires may be decent for the streets, but you want to get something Z rated and preferably soft compounded drag radial for the track. I mean something like a Nitto555R or something would likely do you well, but a nice M/T ET drag radial or a Hoosier Street slick.

 

[snooopy365]

race season is done here in canada, my car is going right to the shop when i pull the car cover off of it. 2.3 stroker, meth, exhst mani, intake mani, but i just don't know what turbo set up is gona suit me the best. i daily drive the car in summer, and i hit up the track alot too. i have an option between the FP gt3076r, or the fp green. iam aiming for around 450whp. and thank's alot for your information man, i appreciate it.

I wouldn't change the turbo now.
Its to early at this stage to say: more power will do the deal.

Something is VERY wrong here.
I'm running a 16G Evo3 with stock head (+272 FP2s) with only 18PSI of boost and FWD.
Due to the fact that I did run 7year old cheap tires and only have FWD I was able to get a
13.8s @ 106mph.

Stock intake, some boostleaks and car wasn't tuned (running custom maps and Evo8 +E85).

I dynoed the car at 287wph@6500-7000rpm.
Plus the fact that it wasn't on a glued track.

I know 13.8 isn't 13.0s but I needed to baby the first 2 gears like crazy.
If it would have been AWD 13.0 would be hard to archive.

(have a look:
Brilon2011 - 4g63.de Meeting - YouTube
@5:35 you can see my "best" burnout... aaah run )

lower your stutterbox until the car doesn't spin and doesn't bog. Than go 300rpm higher.
This will let you leave the line with just a little wheelspin.
If you want use NLTS, if you don'T want to use it do this:
Leave your foot on the pedal the whole time! Just lift it a bit, you don't have to go all way to 0% throttle.
And just shift faster!

Sorry for posting video again but I think that is the best way to show you.
This is a friend in his Evo2 AWD:
Evo2 1/4 Meile - Aldenhoven 9.7.11 - YouTube

notice his shifting? and listing to the engine and blow off.
He does not use NLTS! He just doesn't lift the throttle all the way.

Secondly me (again...)
Eclipse 1/4 Meile - Aldenhoven 9.7.11 - YouTube

Just watch the shifting! not the fact that the run was baaaaad.
I'm not shifting as crazy fast but with a little bit more feeling, just because I love my transmission more than the evo owner his one

do you have a dyno chart? I would not shift anywhere before 7000rpm.

Suspension:
Yes harder rear shocks would keep the front down.
But softer rear shocks are good to reduce of the line spinning rear wheels.
Your car seems to absorb some energy into the shocks.

your wheel pressure is pretty low, so either the tires don't have good grip or your rpm is way to high.
Also a little bit stiffer shocks in the back wouldn't hurt.

But I would bed my ass on the fact that you are able to get low 12s with just shifting faster, other shiftpoints and some stiffer shocks.

I'm planing into getting low 12s next session with more boost (like you) and better tires still driving FWD.
So I would spend your "new turbomoney" into track/road time and maybe with a few suspension mods you are able to get into 11s without any new power part at all!
Getting a bigger turbo and still doing it wrong will result in more wheelspin and higher mph while your time will not get better.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

No matter how he cuts it, WHEEL SPIN= BAD ET. Low tire pressure is common in drag racing. You realize pro dragsters run something like 8-10psi in their slicks. Now those are bead locked and have tubes, but its about the "footprint" you make on the launch. When I post my first video pass with my 91 TSi AWD it will be on fully stock engine and suspension and crap tires. All that is going to be done is fuel system and boost for the most part. What I need to handle the 50trim thats in the car now. Nothing more. My suspension will come during the season. And cams are not going to be done to this engine. Im not opening this engine up unless I blow a HG between now and when I build my new motor. That is the only way it gets opened.

Sticky tires, lower tire pressure 15-20psi max, and tuning your suspension will get you where you want along with more practice shifting. I wish u were closer and I would go to the track with you and show you first hand what im talking about, but OP is not even in my country.