EXPERIENCED advice needed...engine rebuilders

[qtxdevilz]

about 3 months ago the number 1 bearing spun on me and seized my motor...we got another crank and i sent my rods back to pauter and they cleaned and fixed them...we put them in with calico coated acl bearings...250 hard miles later i noticed oil leaking from behind the timing belt cover...it ended up being the oil pump that was only 3 months old...it was hard to spin but it was not seized...since we had the pan off to replace the front case and oil pump i decided to check the bearings while i was at it...now this is where the real story begins...

number one bearing was really beat up...almost to the point where it was about to spin...the babbitt looked pretty beat up...this is not a picture of my bearings but it looks just as bad if not worse:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189887
&highlight=king

number two bearing looked ok except for a little stripe down the middle...

number three and four were perfect...

my mains were perfect also...they were king bearings...

i ruled out oil starvation because number four would be more beat up if that was the case...

maybe metal in the oil since the oil pump did get a little funny and ate some metal away...but if that was the case then the mains would be messed up also...

maybe knock...but if i knocked that bad...all the bearings would be bad...but in this case number one was really bad...number three and four are perfect...

maybe too hi or too low oil pressure...i did get the oil pressure relief thing ported a little bigger...did i port to much maybe...if it was an oil pressure thing do you think it would only mess up two bearings...

any advice is very appreciated...thanks...

 

[TimG]

After you had the bearing spin the first time, did you clean the block out fully? If your pump is hard to turn, take off the front case, open it up and see why.

If your bearings are fubared, it's because of a few issues which directly relate to oil supply or clearance issues. Clearance issues could be the result of debree or even a possible tighter clearance. Did you check the rod/cap hone? Sometimes when a bearing is spun, a bur develops on the bearing cap (usually) and is hard to see. It's possible with this bur (still from the first spun bearing), it created a very tight bearing clearance. I hope you check all the clearances when you put the motor back together?

 

[qtxdevilz]

After you had the bearing spin the first time, did you clean the block out fully? If your pump is hard to turn, take off the front case, open it up and see why.

If your bearings are fubared, it's because of a few issues which directly relate to oil supply or clearance issues. Clearance issues could be the result of debree or even a possible tighter clearance. Did you check the rod/cap hone? Sometimes when a bearing is spun, a bur develops on the bearing cap (usually) and is hard to see. It's possible with this bur (still from the first spun bearing), it created a very tight bearing clearance. I hope you check all the clearances when you put the motor back together?

we have a new front case already...the rods were sent back to pauter and they cleaned all the rods and rebored the one the rod that spun...so i know the rods are perfect...

maybe metal from the bad oil pump went though the oil...but if that was the case the mains and the rest of the rod bearings would have looked bad also...

any other advice...thanks alot...

 

[TSIfreek]

Was the oil pump itself taken apart and lubed? If not its just grinding away until oil gets there.

 

[qtxdevilz]

Was the oil pump itself taken apart and lubed? If not its just grinding away until oil gets there.

yes the pump was lubed up before installation...and it was primed with a drill also...

 

[steel_3d]

Did you check the bearing clearance when you put the new bearings in? If I understand correctly the same rod is beat up that spun the first time. My rule is trust no one, not even Pauter, measure for yourself. AT LEAST plastigage it. Best way is to buy a $30 bore gauge from ebay that measures small enough, and use a micrometer, or at least calipers, to measure the clearance and roundness. You can also compare the big ends of all the rods torqued up (not installed, of course). I'd be leaning towards clearance as the culprit in this case.

Oil pump debris could be plausible, but it should've gotten to the #1 main first.

It's possible that you're knocking more in #1 than any other cylinders, for whatever reason. Knock doesn't have to happen at the same time in all cylinders. Not sure if knock should beat up bearings like that though. No experience there.

BTW, did the coating get preserved on the other Calico bearings? I'm putting some into my build right now, I'd like to know if that coating is any use or rubs away right away.

 

[qtxdevilz]

Did you check the bearing clearance when you put the new bearings in? If I understand correctly the same rod is beat up that spun the first time. My rule is trust no one, not even Pauter, measure for yourself. AT LEAST plastigage it. Best way is to buy a $30 bore gauge from ebay that measures small enough, and use a micrometer, or at least calipers, to measure the clearance and roundness. You can also compare the big ends of all the rods torqued up (not installed, of course). I'd be leaning towards clearance as the culprit in this case.

Oil pump debris could be plausible, but it should've gotten to the #1 main first.

It's possible that you're knocking more in #1 than any other cylinders, for whatever reason. Knock doesn't have to happen at the same time in all cylinders. Not sure if knock should beat up bearings like that though. No experience there.

BTW, did the coating get preserved on the other Calico bearings? I'm putting some into my build right now, I'd like to know if that coating is any use or rubs away right away.

thanks for the advice...but do you really think that pauter ####ed up...i mean like they make 800 dollar rods...

the bearings on number three and four still had the black coating on it...do i think it made a difference as far as making my engine survive...no...if you are going to have engine failure...it is going to happen regardless of the little coating on the bearing...i purchased king bearings for replacements...the main bearings were king bearings and they looked perfect and i like the way they performed...so i will try the king rod bearings now...reply with your aim or pm me with your aim...

 

[92awddsm]

I agree that it is a clearance problem. But you already know that.

 

[steel_3d]

Hehh sorry no time to sit online, I'm putting my own motor together at the moment. I'll PM you with my aim though if you wanna talk during the week.

As I said, it don't matter if it's Pauter or whoever, I'd still double-check the big ends, especially after something like this. You can get a setup that'll give you a decent clearance number for like 50 bucks. A bore gauge that can measure 1.77", and calipers. Or AT LEAST plastigage, as I said. Plastigage is a pain in the ass though. It was flattening out too much on my rods, so I got a bore gauge, and that was showing a comfortable .0015-.002" clearance.

I'm glad to hear that the coating was preserved on the good bearings. Obviously it can't save you from real bad ####ups, especially if you had clearance problems to start with. The time I can see it be of help is with minor temporary oil starvation, like from g-loading on a road course or something. Maybe if you suddenly lose oil pressure it would buy you a few seconds to shut the engine down. I figure it can't hurt.

 

[qtxdevilz]

Hehh sorry no time to sit online, I'm putting my own motor together at the moment. I'll PM you with my aim though if you wanna talk during the week.

As I said, it don't matter if it's Pauter or whoever, I'd still double-check the big ends, especially after something like this. You can get a setup that'll give you a decent clearance number for like 50 bucks. A bore gauge that can measure 1.77", and calipers. Or AT LEAST plastigage, as I said. Plastigage is a pain in the ass though. It was flattening out too much on my rods, so I got a bore gauge, and that was showing a comfortable .0015-.002" clearance.

I'm glad to hear that the coating was preserved on the good bearings. Obviously it can't save you from real bad ####ups, especially if you had clearance problems to start with. The time I can see it be of help is with minor temporary oil starvation, like from g-loading on a road course or something. Maybe if you suddenly lose oil pressure it would buy you a few seconds to shut the engine down. I figure it can't hurt.

well i have a telescoping bore gauge set...and a digital caliper...

what do you mean that the plastigauge was flattening too much...if it flattens to much that means the clearance is to tight correct...thanks...

 

[steel_3d]

I've never used the telescoping kind, not sure how accurate you can get with it. But if your calipers read in .0005" you can get a ballpark clearance after several tries. The more unreliable your instruments are, the more trials you need to get a good average

And yes, when plastigage flattens too much it means the clearance is towards the tight end of its range. But it could also be way tighter than the bottom of its range, since it just won't expand any more after some point. It can't keep flattening forever, it's not a liquid

And that's why I got the bore gauge (I actually lucked out and got a gauge that reads in .0001 increments, which is much easier to read than the .0005 ones). I'd rather spend 200 bucks on instruments and know how my engine goes together, than be scratching my head when it blows up. The only clearance I can't measure at this point is the wrist pin clearance, but if I was worried I could get a bore gauge for that too for 30 bucks

 

[bastarddsm]

How is your fuel system? If your fuel system wasn't up to snuf it could have gone lean on number 1 which caused knock and beat the piss out of the bearing.

 

[92awddsm]

How is your fuel system? If your fuel system wasn't up to snuf it could have gone lean on number 1 which caused knock and beat the piss out of the bearing.

I thought that at first too but the bearing is beat up around the parting line, not in the upper or lower shell. This leads me to believe that it is a clearance problem more than anything else.

 

[bastarddsm]

ok i'll buy that. if he had some pictures up it would be a lot easier to tell what happened.

I had a motor that went lean on #1 and melted the piston and the head, but had no damage on the bottom end. I have seen a rodbearing pounded out on a 302 with nitrous, so it can happen.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

There is a chance that the Rod bolts might have streched on #1 during assembly

happened to me on my ross/eagle build. Had to get a new set for 70 bucks.

Reality anything could've happened during anytime, hard to diagnose on the net.

 

[qtxdevilz]

I've never used the telescoping kind, not sure how accurate you can get with it. But if your calipers read in .0005" you can get a ballpark clearance after several tries. The more unreliable your instruments are, the more trials you need to get a good average

And yes, when plastigage flattens too much it means the clearance is towards the tight end of its range. But it could also be way tighter than the bottom of its range, since it just won't expand any more after some point. It can't keep flattening forever, it's not a liquid

And that's why I got the bore gauge (I actually lucked out and got a gauge that reads in .0001 increments, which is much easier to read than the .0005 ones). I'd rather spend 200 bucks on instruments and know how my engine goes together, than be scratching my head when it blows up. The only clearance I can't measure at this point is the wrist pin clearance, but if I was worried I could get a bore gauge for that too for 30 bucks

so question is how did the plastigauge get smashed up too much which means it is too tight...but when you measured with a gauge it was correct...were you maybe using the wrong plastigauge...

when you measure for clearance...do you put the bearing in the rod...then measure the inner circle of the bearing...

my head is still on the motor...so do you think i will be fine just measuring it with plastigauge...and if the clearances are wrong then i will tear the head off and measure with my gauge...i am suppose to be looking for .0013 - .0020 or clearance correct...

 

[qtxdevilz]

How is your fuel system? If your fuel system wasn't up to snuf it could have gone lean on number 1 which caused knock and beat the piss out of the bearing.

supra pump and 880 injectors...i think it i was knock enough to destroy the number 1 bearing that i should at least see a little bit of damage to the rest...

 

[steel_3d]

I was using the right plastigage. Might be that the crank was turning a bit as I was torquing the rod bolts down, smearing the plastigage?? Or maybe it smeared from the downward pressure I was putting on it while torquing? If it's in the car this effect might be less since you're working upside down. Also, the crank is kept more stable.

If the plastigage reads ok, then I say it's probably ok. Of course it doesn't tell you if the cearance near the parting line is ####ed. 92awddsm was implying that the problem is there, though I can't see that from the pics.

I assume you know how to use the bore gauge and calipers or mic to get the clearance. It should be much more reliable than plastigage, just make sure you can repeat the same measurements a few times. You can also measure taper and out of roundness if you measure at different spots around the bearing. About .0005 and sometimes closer to .001 taper or out of round can happen in real life, from my experience.

It would be useful to get a rod bolt stretch gauge. I find the torque values are a bit different to get the desired stretch than what's on the instruction sheet. For example I had to torque the arp's on my rod bolts to 50lbft instead of 43 to get the desired stretch. Also, this gauge lets you track the length of the bolt and you can tell whether it's yielded if the length changes each time you torque it, or if you hit the specified stretch with a low torque value.

Oh, also make sure there's no burrs on the parting line that can throw things off.

 

[92awddsm]

If the plastigage reads ok, then I say it's probably ok. Of course it doesn't tell you if the cearance near the parting line is ####ed. 92awddsm was implying that the problem is there, though I can't see that from the pics.

The pictures you looked at were mine from over a year ago. The op hasnt posted pics of his yet. He just used mine as a reference.

 

[qtxdevilz]

i would like to thank everyone for all the help so far...

i got the new bearings in yesterday...plastigauged every thing...and everything was in spec...the number one rod measure .002 dry...i did it again but with some oil on the plastigauge to help keep it in place and it measured between .0015 and .002...so it is within spec...i put the rest of the bearings on it they were all between .0015 and .0025 or so...i think i will throw the rest of the motor back together and put on a oil pressure gauge to see what is going on...

any other advice is appreciated...

i will also plastigauge the first bearing again today just to triple check...