EvoIII problems

[Ryn1727]

Hey everyone I recently installed an Evo III Big 16g on my car and I have been having some major problems.

First heres what i have done..
-real Evo III Big 16g (not the GT)
-ported exhaust manifold
-intake
-650cc injectors
-SAFC II
-Palm logger running OBD Gauge (its an old palm)
-Walbro 190 fuel pump
-open downpipe (until I can afford exhaust)
-fake Greddy Type-S bov (came with the car, just found out it isn't real)


Now i have two main problems that i haven't been able to figure out...

The first problem started about a week ago. When i accelerate and go to shift gears if I leave the clutch in or just pop the car out of gear the rpm's just drop right off to zero and the car stalls. It seems to only happen when I'm accelerating, if I'm stopped or decelerating or anything in between the car doesn't stall. When it stalls its not like the car shudders or shakes it just turns off like I'm taking the key out of the ignition. Sometimes after the car stalls out it comes back on its own, or it will drop off to like 200rpm's and then bounce back. This has had me stumped for a few days since the car starts up and runs fine and everything sounds the same when I'm driving around. Just a little background on the car when i was off at school learning to drive a stick I went through a clutch because i was that bad(i think it was close to dieing anyway) and had it replaced by a shop with a stock equivalent and ever since then when i push the clutch pedal to the floor it sticks for a second or two and i can beat it out with my foot. Could the sudden stalling while accelerating be tied with that?

The second problem is that it feels like I'm making almost no power with the EvoIII. I haven't taken the car to the track or anything but the new turbo is only giving me a car length at most on the cars i used to be dead even with. I'm running 16psi steady and it doesn't feel much different then my stock turbo at 15psi. To give a better gauge I'm barley pulling a new stock Golf GTI with an intake. Now I don't have the best tune in the world at the moment for my high throttle tables but from my logs it seems good enough that my loss of power isn't from knock, although i believe I knock slightly up top. I just replaced the spark plugs with NGK BPR7ES's at .28-.29 gap and my wires look fine. Ive checked all the bolts and lines i put on with the EvoIII and i haven't found any boost leaks.


Any help is very much needed I'm stumped as to where to go from here. If anyone needs more information about my car or problems that i left out just let me know. My friend just talked to someone a few minutes ago that said it might be the fake Type S thats causing me the loss of power even though my boost gauge says I'm holding 16psi steady. Could that be all thats causing the little power gain I'm getting from the EvoIII?

Thanks for any help guys.

-Ryan

 

[MelloEclipse]

hm...are you sure you have no boost leaks? just checking the bolts isn't enough...do a real boost leak test using a tester...

i'm not so sure on the fake type-S i've seen reviews on them that aren't HORRIBLE. one guy even recommends them...

i'm not sure what to say about the clutch...i'm not too wise on that matter..although that does sound like a 'problem' that you might want to have fixed as well.

why don't you do a compression test to check on the motor and how it's running...you'd hate to just think it's a turbo when something bad is about to happen to the motor..

 

[wt71gas]

As far as the power the that turbo will spool a little slower and you should feel a bigger difference in top end. What do you have the afc set at. Have you put a wideband on it yet. You are probably running rich but don't lean it out unless you know for sure. And not sure about the clutch but that is not normal at all. Something is going on and could very well be part of the other problem.

 

[Nicks2319]

Do you have an AFPR? Mine was doing the same thing until I realized I had the fuel pressure too low. If you dont have an AFPR, the 190 is probably overpowering the stock FPR and causing low fuel pressure.

 

[mnetwork]

Do you have an AFPR? Mine was doing the same thing until I realized I had the fuel pressure too low. If you dont have an AFPR, the 190 is probably overpowering the stock FPR and causing low fuel pressure.

My 190 is fine without an AFPR.. I have a similar setup...

As for the turbo.. check for boost leaks and check your a/f ratio's.. post your afc settings. I had a few leaks when I first installed my evo3 and I was running very rich and I had the same problem as you.. I felt no better than the stock turbo with later spool.. 16 psi on the evo3 with a good tune feels very nice.. I'd guess some where in the mid 200's whp range..

And the clutch.. I had a very similar problem with that and it wound up being my slave cyl..

The fake type-s.. I have a type-s and I had to buy a fake one to use the top cap from it to fix mine because the helicoil for sprint adjustment screw popped out and ruined the top. I took the fake one apart and it looked a lot cheaper than the real type-s.. the diaphram was flimsy and so were the springs.. I also asked another ebayer about the fake type-s and he said he used it and it was horrible.

 

[Ryn1727]

ya i thought the stock AFPR was ok with the 190 thats why i went with it over the 255.

could something with my clutch cylinder be causing the car to stall out? i know people are going to jump straight to crankwalk but the car stalls the same when i pop it out of gear and I don't see how that could be crankwalk since I'm not pushing the clutch against the crank.

as far as my air fuel goes I've been doing logs and the o2 voltage is roughly between .92 and .94 and my timing climbs to about 23-24 degrees pretty steady after dropping to 13-15 when boost kicks in with a little knock up top but not enough to cause the amount of power I'm losing. Could the fake Greddy Type S be my boost leak and be losing enough boost to cause my power loss even if I have steady psi readings?

thanks for you input so far guys its helping the wheels turn in my head

 

[GVR4592]

Is the bov venting to atmosphere? I know you said the stalling problem just started, but if the bov is vented to atmosphere it could be contributing to the problem. A boost leak test should be the first thing on your list though.

As for the clutch sticking to the floor, it sounds like you need to bleed the hydraulic system.

 

[mnetwork]

Is the bov venting to atmosphere? I know you said the stalling problem just started, but if the bov is vented to atmosphere it could be contributing to the problem. A boost leak test should be the first thing on your list though.

As for the clutch sticking to the floor, it sounds like you need to bleed the hydraulic system.

Yeah, I didn't even think to ask that.. If you're venting that would explain a lot.

Bleed the clutch system and check out that cylinder. I had problems going into gear at times because my clutch was sticking because of a bad cylinder...

 

[Ryn1727]

no im not venting, sorry i forgot to mention that i keep forgetting that people actually do that, ill try out a boost leak test in a day or two and bleed the system out too, any thing else you guys can think of?

 

[Splitpi]

It sounds to me like you are running pig rich... or atleast symptoms of it. Is there alot of black soot on your tail above the exhaust pipe? Err... I mean at your open down pipe... by chance what did you do with your second O2 sensor?

I would definitally check your fuel pressure at idle, its a good thing to do at any rate. And do a boost leak as has been previously mentioned.

 

[Splitpi]

One last thing... while I have never used an SAFC, perhaps you do not have it fully setup correctly or tuned for your 650cc injectors. I have heard people run them with an SAFC (though it is the upper limit... so I hear) just fine. Perhaps you just need to fines it a little better an pull back some of the fuel.

 

[Ryn1727]

I felt the same way so I pulled my plug tips and they were white at the tips so I don't think I can be running rich. I didn't think to check the end of my downpipe ill go ahead and check that at the same time that I'm doing the boost leak test. I'll look up how to check the fuel pressure and if I can find what I need I'll give that a try too and post back on everything i find with the tests to see whats up. The 2nd o2 sensor is still sitting in the cat back which I left connected to the car, but I haven't gotten a check engine light yet which seems odd i thought everyone did.

I also bought a uncrushed 1g bov to replace the fake greddy so hopefully that will make a big difference for the low power

 

[bob123131]

Just on a side not open you type s and check the diaphgram to see if its ripped. The springs and internal parts of the fake are just fine, the problem with the fake type s is their diaphrams are not coated to resist oil and tear easily, the longest i have gone with out ripping one of their diaphramns is 7 months, but just that leak would not cause the issues that you have had. Do a boost leak test before you you pull the greddy and see if air comes out of the lower niple.

 

[Ryn1727]

it looks like the guy who had the car before me had it on there for quite a while and i know I'm pretty sure i had some oil getting in the bov from my stock turbo so i wouldn't be surprised if its destroyed in there, after i do the boost leak and compression tests tomorrow after work ill check it out and see how bad it is inside the fake greddy

 

[Ryn1727]

alright heres an update, sorry it took so long i had a family vacation.

I bought a 1g bov and crushed it, and installed that in place of the fake greddy type s.

We boost leak tested the car, the 1g bov holds 20psi with a tiny bit of air coming out.

There seems to be a couple leaks coming from the throttle body. The BISS screw is leaking some air, and the throttle screw/cable leaks air when you start to push it like your giving the engine gas, but then stops leaking air. Im not sure if thats normal or if it is a leak. The third leak we couldn't find but it seems to be coming from the left side of the throttle body somewhere on the underside, we pulled the battery but couldn't find the leak.

I'm assuming the BISS screw will be an easy fix but as for the others is it just a gasket that needs replacing or something more?

 

[Splitpi]

alright heres an update, sorry it took so long i had a family vacation.

I bought a 1g bov and crushed it, and installed that in place of the fake greddy type s.

We boost leak tested the car, the 1g bov holds 20psi with a tiny bit of air coming out.

There seems to be a couple leaks coming from the throttle body. The BISS screw is leaking some air, and the throttle screw/cable leaks air when you start to push it like your giving the engine gas, but then stops leaking air. Im not sure if thats normal or if it is a leak. The third leak we couldn't find but it seems to be coming from the left side of the throttle body somewhere on the underside, we pulled the battery but couldn't find the leak.

I'm assuming the BISS screw will be an easy fix but as for the others is it just a gasket that needs replacing or something more?

Yes.

http://www.ca.dsm.org/faq/tb-shaftseals.html
http://www.plymouthlaser.com/tbor.htm
http://www.plymouthlaser.com/tps.htm

Some people fix the biss by filling the hole with JB or epoxy, or eurothane (like the stuff for window seals). If you do this it may be nearly impossible to adjust the screw at a later date. I would recommend you fix it properly with a new O-ring from mitsu.

 

[daren_p]

alright heres an update, sorry it took so long i had a family vacation.

I bought a 1g bov and crushed it, and installed that in place of the fake greddy type s.

We boost leak tested the car, the 1g bov holds 20psi with a tiny bit of air coming out.

There seems to be a couple leaks coming from the throttle body. The BISS screw is leaking some air, and the throttle screw/cable leaks air when you start to push it like your giving the engine gas, but then stops leaking air. Im not sure if thats normal or if it is a leak. The third leak we couldn't find but it seems to be coming from the left side of the throttle body somewhere on the underside, we pulled the battery but couldn't find the leak.

I'm assuming the BISS screw will be an easy fix but as for the others is it just a gasket that needs replacing or something more?

Sounds like you need to replace your BISS oring & your throttleplate shaft seals. Its pretty common for both of these to go & the factory design of the shaft seals is pretty poor. The shaft seals replacements you want are a blue coloured seal & I believe the info about them is listed on the vfaq & most DSM vendors will carry them.

Edit: Heres a link to the shaft seal replacement on the vfaq, the proper seals you want are listed here:

http://www.ca.dsm.org/faq/tb-shaftseals.html

 

[DSMvroom]

Did you plug your MAS back in?

 

[Ryn1727]

well heres another update

i took out the throttle body, cleaned it, replaced the throttle body seals with o-rings from home depot, cleaned the old gaskets (they looked pretty new), and used rtv sealant on both sides of the gaskets. i replaced the biss o-ring with a home depot one as well. after going for a test drive i only managed to get the car to almost stall twice, which is a big improvement from before it was stalling every time i shifted pretty much. i gave it a little boost and it felt a little bit better but the tune is way off now without the leaks i think.

im going to buy the real throttle body seals tomorrow morning as well as a wideband so i can tune the car better and see if im making the power i was losing

can i put the wideband o2 sensor in the end of my open downpipe without ruining it?

 

[mnetwork]

You mean just hanging in free air??? I have my wideband where the after-cat o2 sensor normally would be..

 

[Splitpi]

can i put the wideband o2 sensor in the end of my open downpipe without ruining it?

Depends on the wideband... but generally no. For instance, my LC-1 wants it to be placed in stream ~2 feet from the turbo and before the cat. The reason you want it in stream and far away from the exit is so that the outside oxygen doesn't mix and spoil the reading. Some sensors do account for this however. As many dyno shops have such sensors.

Generally, you want the WB before the cat as the well...the cat is well a catalyst and changes exhuast gas chemistry so your values will either be delayed or differant from actuals. While this may work decently, it is not ideal.

Follow the manufactures recomendations for mounting and installing the sensor.

 

[mnetwork]

I have mine on my down pipe with no issues.. When I was on the dyno I compared the car's wideband to the dyno's wideband and they were the same..

 

[Ryn1727]

awsome i just wanted to make sure that having it in the downpipe is fine because i remember reading somewhere its supposed to be at least 3 feet back