EVO III creep control

[jibberishballr]

So im going to get an E316g, install kit, and the wastegate in the link below.
Do you think this will be adequate for no boost and will i need anything else for curing creep? I know i can port but with an external wastegate i dont need to right? Also i will be getting fuel mods, tuning, and fmic soon. Im just going to run the turbo at lower boost until then.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16320&cat=446

 

[ShapeGSX]

No, with good flowing exhaust, a virgin EVO III will most likely creep to 22psi+, 18psi really isn't considered creep going by EVO III standards.

My virgin Evo III does not creep with a full 3" exhaust. In fact, I have never had it creep. But I got my HKS cams before I got the turbo.

Apparently getting the Evo III to not creep without porting it is how you end up going fast with it.

 

[oldman]

My virgin Evo III does not creep with a full 3" exhaust. In fact, I have never had it creep. But I got my HKS cams before I got the turbo.

That's why I said most likely, although rare they're out there, consider yourself one of the lucky few. Keep in mind that not all 3" exhausts, o2 housing, overall flow......etc are the same, every car is different.

Apparently getting the Evo III to not creep without porting it is how you end up going fast with it.

Why do you say that? There are alot of room for improvement on the EVO III housing. A properly ported turbo will not only cure/reduce boost creep, it will also increase flow and improve spool, best of both worlds.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Why do you say that? There are alot of room for improvement on the EVO III housing. A properly ported turbo will not only cure/reduce boost creep, it will also increase flow and improve spool, best of both worlds.

Because all the guys who have gone fast with it have done so without porting the turbo. 118.8mph in my car. 119mph in Tom Noonen's car. 121mph in Matt Thomas's car.

Even if you port the turbine housing, all of the exhaust still has to flow through a 7cm^2 hole (well, plus the wastegate hole).

As I said before, you want exhaust to flow smoothly. When you port out the exhaust housing entrance, like in the picture here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186525 , the exhaust has to expand and slow down a ton to fill the larger area, and then it has to compress and accelerate to go through the snail and into the turbine. It is actually less efficient than using an unported housing.

You want to avoid big diameter changes in intercooler piping. The exhaust is no different.

Nobody ports Garrett exhaust housings. Why do you think that you have to port a Mitsu exhaust housing?

On top of this, I have yet to see anyone post tangible gains from porting a 7cm housing. Sure, people have done it for years, but I think that they just do it because they think they have to. Plus the vendors like to push it because they make an extra $75 off of it on a dirt cheap, low margin commodity turbo. And people who do their own porting want to think that all that painful work was worth something.

This is also why I think that the "pre-ported" Evo III GT exhaust housings are bad.

 

[oldman]

As I said before, you want exhaust to flow smoothly. When you port out the exhaust housing entrance, like in the picture here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186525 , the exhaust has to expand and slow down a ton to fill the larger area, and then it has to compress and accelerate to go through the snail and into the turbine. It is actually less efficient than using an unported housing.

Insteresting theory and I'm not saying you're wrong but I would like to see back to back dynos before I sign on. Three piece porting has been around for a while and has always been known to be one of the best free mods, there was definitely noticeable gains, especially in spool up, when I had mine done.

Edit: Also keep in mind that most people don't try to take an EVO III into 11's, I'm having hard time believing that if we were to unbolt your setup and give it a nice port job that you will end up losing time, maybe we should give it a try.

 

[Gunter]

Ok well i just want to get this sorted out because i'm gong to start installing all my new components in the next week or two (listed in my profile). So if all the things listed my profile are set up properly, would it be safe to run the turbo without porting it, considering it will creep to 22psi?

 

[oldman]

Ok well i just want to get this sorted out because i'm gong to start installing all my new components in the next week or two (listed in my profile). So if all the things listed my profile are set up properly, would it be safe to run the turbo without porting it, considering it will creep to 22psi?

No one can tell you for sure until you bolt it on, you can have no creep or you can creep to 26psi, every car is different.

 

[Gunter]

ok thanks, i'll bolt it ono and see how it goes

 

[ShapeGSX]

No one can tell you for sure until you bolt it on, you can have no creep or you can creep to 26psi, every car is different.

Agreed.

 

[TheClaw]

I have 272/272 cams as well.. I dunno man.. I know it was creeping. You have 32mm internal gate? .

 

[ShapeGSX]

I have 272/272 cams as well.. I dunno man.. I know it was creeping. You have 32mm internal gate? .

My Evo III 16G is bone stock. I don't know what size the wastegate is.

32mm seems like it is larger than stock, though. A larger flapper valve can actually make creep worse because the flapper will never open more than about 1/4" as Leon said above. So the larger flapper really just ends up being a larger obstruction for the exhaust to have to flow around.

The Evo III doesn't have a lot of meat around the wastegate. So you can't port it like you could the big and small 16Gs. I've never understood the reasoning behind larger flapper valves on the Evo III.

Ok, I just looked it up. The stock flapper is 31mm. So I'm guessing yours was stock, too?

 

[oldman]

Stock is 31mm and the upgraded one is 34mm.

 

[TheClaw]

yep, mine was stock too. Only thing ported was the hot side. That's it.

No other mods that would really make a difference.. I dunno. You said you had MHI right?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Yep, bone stock MHI. I bought it as soon as I had heard about the Evo III 16G back in August 2003. They hadn't even thought about shipping the turbo to China for copying back then. Ran my first 11 second pass with it back on 5/1/2004. In that time, I have unbolted the turbo once to install the Evo III manifold and the sealing ring.

 

[jibberishballr]

If you plan on getting the Evo III manifold, I wouldn't port the Evo III 16G at all. Instead, get the sealing ring that goes between the manifold and the turbine housing and use a stock 16G gasket. You won't ever leak exhaust that way, and you get a nice smooth path from the exhaust manifold to the turbine without excess widening and narrowing.

This is the way I have my car set up.

RRE sells the 16G sealing ring. Works great.

Personally, I think you are wasting money with an external wastegate, though. Use that money for a set of cams, instead (assuming your fuel setup is already in place, which it should be).

Ok so if i have the Evo manifold and the sealing ring RRE sells i wont see creep?
Would this manifold be good on the 2g solution kit from turbochargers.com

http://www.turbochargers.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=186

Also im assuming the sealing ring is the one on this page right under where it says
EVO III Exhaust Manifolds/ O2 Housings

http://roadraceengineering.com/eclturbos.htm

Also what do you mean by using the stock 16 Gasket? Do you mean with the sealing ring?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Ok so if i have the Evo manifold and the sealing ring RRE sells i wont see creep?

I am not saying that. Nobody can guarantee that you won't get boost creep. There are too many variable.s

Would this manifold be good on the 2g solution kit from turbochargers.com

http://www.turbochargers.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=186

No, you can't use the sealing ring with that manifold because it is ported. Also, I know that the real Evo III manifold will not crack. I can't say the same thing for that manifold.

Also im assuming the sealing ring is the one on this page right under where it says
EVO III Exhaust Manifolds/ O2 Housings

http://roadraceengineering.com/eclturbos.htm

Also what do you mean by using the stock 16 Gasket? Do you mean with the sealing ring?

Yes, that is the ring I am talking about. The gasket goes around the ring, between the manifold and turbine housing. Unfortunately, it is hard to find because it comes in the 6-bolt head gasket kits. I'm not sure who sells it seperately. The "gaskets" that most companies sell to go in there are really too thick to do much of anything.

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[jibberishballr]

OK so if i get that solution kit what should i do to try and cure creep. If i get the EVO III by itself what would you suggest getting? Im dont want to spend over 750 if i can.

I am not saying that. Nobody can guarantee that you won't get boost creep. There are too many variable.s




No, you can't use the sealing ring with that manifold because it is ported. Also, I know that the real Evo III manifold will not crack. I can't say the same thing for that manifold.



Yes, that is the ring I am talking about. The gasket goes around the ring, between the manifold and turbine housing. Unfortunately, it is hard to find because it comes in the 6-bolt head gasket kits. I'm not sure who sells it seperately. The "gaskets" that most companies sell to go in there are really too thick to do much of anything.

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[silvah_gsx]

Nobody can guarantee that you won't get boost creep. There are too many variable.s

I'm one of the unlucky ones who can't keep low enough boost to avoid fuel cut. You think setting it to around 15 pounds (with 650s and walbro 190) would do away with the creep?

The wastegate (34mm) is hooked directly to pressure source, and it starts at about 8 psi at 3000 and fuel cuts by 6000.

 

[jibberishballr]

Well i think im gonna get the 2G solution kit from turbochargers.com for 699.99.
It sounds like a good deal to me and i think the manifold they have is a good choice (after researching alot). I think by running the turbo at low boost not getting a bigger wg, and no porting ill be fine for a while. I think that eventually ill run higher boost and get all the fuel/ tuning mods and maybe a fmic. Also since i have stock exhaust, downpipe, and cat right now boost creep wont be as bad (crossing my fingers) If creep happens im sure ill be back on tuners soon. If i do upgrade my exhaust itll only be to 2.5 not a full 3 inch. Well just wanted to let you guys know. Bring on the criticisms and comment.

 

[jibberishballr]

I'm one of the unlucky ones who can't keep low enough boost to avoid fuel cut. You think setting it to around 15 pounds (with 650s and walbro 190) would do away with the creep?

The wastegate (34mm) is hooked directly to pressure source, and it starts at about 8 psi at 3000 and fuel cuts by 6000.

Are you tuning at all?
Did you get the turbo new or used?

 

[silvah_gsx]

Are you tuning at all?
Did you get the turbo new or used?

I got it new from SBR, and I've done several runs tuning with the AFC.

 

[jibberishballr]

I got it new from SBR, and I've done several runs tuning with the AFC.

Well ive heard that tuning with the SAFC on 650's is quite a task. I think im gonna go with either the Evo 560's (i think its 560 right?) or Denso 550's. That way i can hopefully get a good tune. Oh and a Walbro 190 rewired.

Other than that you think ill be okay with the 2G solution package im getting?

My biggest concern was i wanted to see what others thought about the Manifold that comes with it

 

[silvah_gsx]

Well ive heard that tuning with the SAFC on 650's is quite a task.

I'm on 450s now, running what should be the minimum boost. Its the creep that's getting me. WIth 550s and 190, your AFC will be fine.

Just FYI, dsmchips.com sells EPROM ECUs + chips for mid-300s; 385 was the quote Jeff gave me for stage 3 chip and an EPROM ECU. This way you can run 650s with an AFC if you want to.

 

[DSMunknown]

Stock is 31mm and the upgraded one is 34mm.

For anyone who happens to read through the thread, you are partially correct. According to Hung over at Extreme PSI, the diameter of the "upgraded" flapper is 34.8mm.

 

[oldman]

Very possible, I suspect (much like IC piping) 34mm is probably refering to the ID, in this case the flow path, rather than the OD, in this case the actual size of the flapper, but it's just an educational guess.

 

[GRNDSM]

For anyone who happens to read through the thread, you are partially correct. According to Hung over at Extreme PSI, the diameter of the "upgraded" flapper is 34.8mm.

Well, that just makes it even more worthless of a mod . You can't port EVO 3 16G housing much past 30-31mm, so why bother with even larger valve?