EVO 16g Detailed Tune (#1 lean) Help!

[siceclipse]

is your ECU chipped to idle with 660's or did they re-map it so you can drive around normaly with the 660's in??

I thought chips only helped your car to idle with bigger injecters...

That is why you want to set you LOW to 30%.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Well 3/4 throttle is enough to get alot of spool so you would have alot of boost but not as muhc fuel which would make you really lean.

Why not just do 30/80 like everyone else? once you get in between those numbers the S-AFC averages out between the two.

 

[Jaraxle]

The chipped ecu knows how to deal with the injectors, as if they were the stock ones. Idle or "normal" driving is great out of the box (FYI: I talked to Jeff at dsmchips before ordering, and he recommended the denso 660's because he can get the deadtime on them dead-on). The AFC-II is only being used for the WOT map, which you would have to do with any car with intake/exhaust changes even if running the stock injectors and ecu. The stock ecu goes pig rich from the factory at WOT, and the AFC can remedy that. So my question is: when does the ecu go to open loop ? Only at 100% throttle ? Anyone know ?

I'm thinking of setting my low at 80 and hi at 90. That way my LTFT aren't wrong below 80% throttle. That is what was making my car rich. Mid throttle (above 10%) was always different and changing. The LTFT couldn't be correct for all cases, so the ecu leaned to caution by richening things up ! My low settings are going to be 0'd across the board. The ecu is close enough to fine tune it (LTFT) from there. All I care about is the WOT map.
Andy - I will take your suggestion and have another chip made. I just can't change too many things this close to race day ! I already had the car dyno tuned for this event, and I want to stick as close to that fuel curve as I can.

 

[siceclipse]

if your ECU takes care of the low throttle then set your AFC to 30% and just leave the setting points at 0% across.

 

[Jaraxle]

I'm going to zero all the low settings. The question is when to switch to the WOT map, which I want to be when the ecu leaves closed loop, and goes open. Anyone know when this is ? Is it only throttle %, or is it based on other factors ?
I'm thinking to set the low at 70% and the hi at 90%. But I'd like all the data before I make that decision. If the ecu leaves closed loop at 80%, then I'm shooting myself in the foot for a black bumper again, and knock. (because the WOT map takes away more fuel than the low map)

-Jaraxle

 

[Jaraxle]

Well I threw on the 4-piston wilwoods. Set the A/F to around 11:1. Tanked up with 100 octane and hit the track for two days (road race at watkins glen). No knock. Ran awesome. On the second day, I decided to turn on the water injection that I installed about 4 days before race day (with 100 octane). Holy snot ! Wish I ran that the first day (the only car I couldn't catch was a '04 911 turbo). I'm running about 3gph injectors from the washer tank (distilled water). On the way to the track, I tested the water injection with 93 octane. Still got a little knock, but good timing (17deg at redline). I'm still leaning torwards the EGR. I'll post here if I find the EGR to be causing some knock. It isn't out of the question based on my research. Carbon buildup in the EGR port can get blown into the intake at high boost. Maybe it is all blown out, after 4 hours of WOT driving !

 

[NewB2dsm]

I know for a fact and have proof that just a 190 isn't enough fuel to supply a 19-20 psi on a evoIII near redline...rewired the 190 and it doesn't lean out up top any more. I couldn't run it below 19 psi so I don't know about 17psi

rewire it and call me in the morning

show the proof. It worked just fine for me making 340awhp at 25ps on my small 16g. It should be MORE than enough for what he is doing right now.

Also how old is your fuel filter?

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

What he ^^ said. My 190 (not-rewired) works fine with my e3b16g at 21psi without running lean at all.

 

[spyderturbo007]

To answer the original poster's question, the ECU needs to see a TPS value above 90% for it to be consider it WOT.

On to the fun stuff:

show the proof. It worked just fine for me making 340awhp at 25ps on my small 16g. It should be MORE than enough for what he is doing right now.

For the most part, truwarrior is correct. It really depends on what airflow you are running at that 20psi. What you can do, is determine the max airflow you can run give your set boost level.

Everyone have their thinking caps on???

Because pumps flow different volumes at different pressures we need to determine the pressure at which the pump will be required to run. The base 2g pressure is 43psi. We know that the 2g uses a raising rate fuel pressure regulator. This RRFPR increases fuel pressure by 1psi for every 1psi of boost. Knowing that, the pump will be required to perform at 63psi.

Now we need to know what the pump is capiable of flowing at 63psi.

According to RRE's tests of the Walboro 190lph FP, the Walbro 190lph can flow 168.45 L/Hr @ 43psi, 145.11 L/hr @ 58psi and 88.96 L/hr @ 73psi. This is assuming a fuel pump that is not rewired and receiving 12.5 volts.

Using that information, we can create an Excel spreadsheet and determine the flow of the pump at 63psi. I have determine that to be 129 L/hr. Converting to gallons/hour gives us a value of 33.54 g/hr. Next we need to know how many pounds of fuel is in one gallon. This will allow us to use the target AFR to convert to maximum airflow.

The specific gravity of 93 octane fuel is 0.76. That means that the water's mass ratio to fuel is 1 : 0.76. Knowing that water weighs 8.06 lbs/gal, we can calculate that 1g of fuel (93 octane) weighs 6.13 lbs / gallon. Using this value we can determine how many pounds of fuel are used every hour. We flow 33.54 g/hr and each gallon weighs 6.13 lbs, so we are flowing 205.60 lbs of fuel every hour.

Now, assume that we are shooting for a target AFR of 11.3:1, that means that for every 1 unit of fuel, we are using 11.3 units of air. Well, we know the maximum amount of fuel that we can deliver, so all we need to do is determine the maximum amout of air that we can support. Multiplying 205.60 lbs/hr of fuel, by 11.3, we get 2323.28 lbs/hr of air. Divide by 60 so we can find airflow in useable numbers (lbs/min) and you will see that we can flow a maximum of 38.72 lbs/min.

So, at 12.5v on a Walbro 190lph FP, using a target AFR of 11.3:1, 93 octane fuel and 20psi of boost, we can support 38.72 lbs/min.

Wow, that was fun!!!!

Anyway, here comes the hitch.......What is the maximum amount of air that an EVO III 16g will flow??? That depends on your setup. I am flowing about 33lbs/min (depending on the ambient temperature), so I don't have to worry about maxing out my 190. On the other hand, if I were to turn up the boost, the pressure that the FP would have to run at would increase. As you can see, the higher the pressure on the FP, the lower the volume it can support per unit of time. That is one reason that I never advocate raising the FP above factory specs (but that's a different story).

Let's say that I would drop in some cams, which are normally good for about a 3 - 4lbs/min increase in airflow. That would put me in the 37 lbs/min range, which is just about the max the pump could handle.

So, can you max out a 190 at 20psi??? That dependson your setup, but yes it is possible.

Can you max out a 190 with an EVO III 16g......Absolutely!

I hope everyone enjoyed that, I know I did.

 

[truwarrior]

Look at the wideband reading towards the end of the log. Fuel filter age?...maybe 30,000 miles.

 

[CanadianTSi]

If there's any doubting the 190 pump...I ran the time in my sig with a 190 on the stock wiring on pump gas.

 

[truwarrior]

The doubt is in the factory wire not the 190FP. My log clearly proves that anyone with a EVO16G and a handful of decent other mods, should rewire the pump. There is no reason not rewire it! The car drives better after the rewire and my A/F doesn't rise any more.

 

[hovis4cyl]

Carbon buildup could be long gone after that running with water injection.. You basically steam cleaned the whole inside of your engine. I've pulled heads off of cars with water injection and they are shiney as new.. Also on cars with blown headgaskets.. but water injection is definatly good for an engine when used correctly

 

[NewB2dsm]

If there's any doubting the 190 pump...I ran the time in my sig with a 190 on the stock wiring on pump gas.

Thank you, i knew there was someone that went 120mph on a 190 pump.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Thank you, i knew there was someone that went 120mph on a 190 pump.

I believe the record is 123mph...but that was on race gas. I was on stright pump gas.

 

[Jaraxle]

spyderturbo007 - Awesome write-up. Chemist does it right ! Now I know my limits. I'm never going to run more than 19psi-20psi. I bought my boost gauge as a mental limit (it only goes to 20psi). Since my car is used for road/race I have to be conservative (I run 16-17psi at the track). WOT for 1/2hr runs is NOT the same as 1/4mile 10-14 second bursts. It's a whole 'nother game.

As for the carbon build-up. My egr solenoid was dead for a while. Finally threw a code, and I saw that the hose tab connection for the solenoid was broken. So my EGR was running closed 100% of the time. This can cause a carbon buildup in the egr runner port. I replaced the solenoid, and I'm hoping that from 4 hours of almost WOT driving, and maybe 1 hour on water injection, that I'm fine now. Perhaps the EGR needs replacement or manually cleaning of the egr port. I should write a knock article. It can be so many things, and you have to shake it down one by one. I just don't understand the 1G phantom knock issue. Just the ecu being stupid ?

 

[NewB2dsm]

spyderturbo007 - Awesome write-up. Chemist does it right ! Now I know my limits. I'm never going to run more than 19psi-20psi. I bought my boost gauge as a mental limit (it only goes to 20psi). Since my car is used for road/race I have to be conservative (I run 16-17psi at the track). WOT for 1/2hr runs is NOT the same as 1/4mile 10-14 second bursts. It's a whole 'nother game.

Get very very good cooling. Which im sure you probably already have, or hope you do. And on a good tune, its not any more dangeruous to make more power for a road race. Hell i through in race gas, and turned the boost up a few pounds when i went to Second Creek out in CO for a track day. But stock cooling doesnt like 30min of WOT and thin air Plus a FMIC, only could do a few laps at WOT then had to take a few laps very slow to get temps back down.

 

[Jaraxle]

I have an air/oil cooler (removed stock oil/liquid cooler), and flex slim fans that both turn on the radiator. Yes my temps did rise on me, but not out of control. I had to back off a bit on the straights. Never got the the RED zone. I was thinking of adding a small liquid/air cooler where the stock SMIC was. Small I mean 7x11X1". I would use the 3/8" ports that used to connect to the stock liquid oil cooler (they are just blocked off right now). THoughts on that ? Too small ? Obviously a big radiator is my other option. Not sure if a 11x7x1" would help the radiator enough to make a difference ? !

-Jaraxle

 

[spyderturbo007]

spyderturbo007 - Awesome write-up. Chemist does it right !

Thanks! I always think it's nice to see the mathematical / analytical side of things.

 

[Jaraxle]

For you guys helping me; leading up to the race...
Here is my post with 100mb video:
Enjoy.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227448