Emergency help! Starter???

[5150DSM]

Aloha,
My car just shut down on me...
I was driving down the street and it just shut off for no apparent reason. Now when I try to start it, the starter just spins, it won't turn over the motor at all. I tried to push it up to speed and pop the clutch to start it but that didn't work either. I'm thinking ring or pinion gear(s)but I'm not sure. It's the middle of the night right now and my car is on the side of the road several blocks from my house so I can't pull the started until morning but I just want to be forearmed so I attack this correctly. Anyone have any divergent opinions as to what could be wrong? I'm fully focused on the starter right now but I'm open to any other ideas. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Tony

 

[skinnyt]

well sounds to me like the starter gear that hits the flywheel or the flywheel its self is shot to hell.u should be able to roll the the car in second gear and pop the cluth to get it to start.

 

[5150DSM]

well sounds to me like the starter gear that hits the flywheel or the flywheel its self is shot to hell.u should be able to roll the the car in second gear and pop the cluth to get it to start.

Ring and/or pinion gear, that's what I think too. I wasn't able to get the car started from a roll with 3 guys pushing me so...

I'm fairly sure it's the starter but I need my car in about 8hrs and the parts shops open in about 7 so I am just looking for some confirmations or other possibilities so I can get an immediate jump on this in the morning. Thanks again for anyone's $.02

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Aloha,
My car just shut down on me...
I was driving down the street and it just shut off for no apparent reason. Now when I try to start it, the starter just spins, it won't turn over the motor at all.
Tony

My guess is bye bye timing belt. Valves, meet pistons. Pull your top timing belt cover off and quickly bump the key to start the car. See if the cam gears turn. I bet they do. If so, try to line the #1 cylinder up to TDC, then check timing marks on the cam. If you can't or don't know how, buy a $35 compression tester and quickly do a compression test.

My money is on the bent valves tho. Sorry

 

[5150DSM]

My guess is bye bye timing belt. Valves, meet pistons. Pull your top timing belt cover off and quickly bump the key to start the car. See if the cam gears turn. I bet they do. If so, try to line the #1 cylinder up to TDC, then check timing marks on the cam. If you can't or don't know how, buy a $35 compression tester and quickly do a compression test.

My money is on the bent valves tho. Sorry

You know, that was my first thought but I was really trying to be optimistic. I pulled the upper timing cover when it happened and the belt is still on and has tension but I didn't have enough light to try and rotate the motor. If the car did jump time, do you think there is any chance I didn't bend the valves? I was only going about 10mph around a corner, maybe 1200-1400rpm's. Thanks for the help.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Can't even begin to speculate. I've lost a timing belt at 70mph on the highway. Shop that did the install, didn't tighten the balance shaft belt tensioner correctly. Belt walked off the pulley, shredded 1/2 the timing belt, sliver got into the belt assembly, between belt and gear, and the intake cam slipped 3 teeth. 72psi across the board. car wouldn't start, but no bent valves. Only way to tell is to check via the above methods.

 

[5150DSM]

Can't even begin to speculate. I've lost a timing belt at 70mph on the highway. Shop that did the install, didn't tighten the balance shaft belt tensioner correctly. Belt walked off the pulley, shredded 1/2 the timing belt, sliver got into the belt assembly, between belt and gear, and the intake cam slipped 3 teeth. 72psi across the board. car wouldn't start, but no bent valves. Only way to tell is to check via the above methods.

Sorry, I know, I'm just looking for hope. Unfortunately, my race car is my daily driver and my job is delivering pizza. So, no car means no money, no money means no car; catch 22, I'm fu(ked. Anyway thanks for the help, I'll be out there in about 6hrs to look everything over and see where I'm at. I'll come back to this thread when I have some answers, maybe my troubles can help someone else.
Aloha

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Oh the joys of using the words "race car" and "daily driver" in the same sentence. Just doesn't work. Now you are learning the downfalls of owning a daily driver DSM and also racing it. Good luck with the testing, and start looking for a $700 beater to get you around WHEN the DSM runs into troubles.

 

[5150DSM]

Pulled the starter and bench tested it at Checker, tested out good on all points. Re-installed starter and it still doesn't engage the flywheel. Last night the starter would just spin freely, now it sounds like it may be contacting the flywheel but it still won't turn it over. Pulled the upper timing cover and the cams don't spin when I bump the starter but they turned when I spun the crank pully. Rotated the engine to TDC and it looks like the exhaust cam is off by 1/2 tooth, after it reached TDC the engine spun one more time and then the cams froze. I can still turn the crank freely but the cams don't turn in time with the crank anymore. I'm guessing now that I jumped time or even broke the balance shaft belt, timing belt is shredded and about half the width it's supposed to be but it's still on and at the proper tension. I'm starting to lose the ball because I have so many different things going on at once. Can anyone help me re-focus? I could really use some experienced insight, as I am reaching the limits of my experience/knowledge of the 4g63. Thanks in advance.
Aloha

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Pulled the starter and bench tested it at Checker, tested out good on all points. Re-installed starter and it still doesn't engage the flywheel. Last night the starter would just spin freely, now it sounds like it may be contacting the flywheel but it still won't turn it over.

Did you ever have this problem before? Having the incorrect flywheel in there can result in this.
but I believe it's having a FWD flywheel in an AWD car creates the problem. I can't remember which flywheel has the larger ring gear diamter.

Pulled the upper timing cover and the cams don't spin when I bump the starter but they turned when I spun the crank pully.

Hmm...definitely the starter isnt engaging for some reason.

Rotated the engine to TDC and it looks like the exhaust cam is off by 1/2 tooth,

Rotate the engine to TDC, try to line up the 2 white timing marks on the cam gears (they should be right next to each other now. Take a straight edge, ruler or something, and run it along the centerline of the 2 cam bolts. Your timing marks should exactly line up with the straight edge. If not, that tells you how much out of time the engine is.

after it reached TDC the engine spun one more time and then the cams froze. I can still turn the crank freely but the cams don't turn in time with the crank anymore.

What do you mean the cams froze? could you turn them via the cam bolt? Quite possible a valve is hitting a piston.

I'm guessing now that I jumped time or even broke the balance shaft belt, timing belt is shredded and about half the width it's supposed to be but it's still on and at the proper tension.

Sounds like your balance shaft belt walked off the pulley and shredded the timing belt.
Same thing happened to me. Unfortunately, I dont think you got as lucky. It sounds like you made some contact. You have 2 choices from here. 1st choice is: Pull all the timing belt assembly off, replace EVERYTHING!! Both belts, tensioners, pulleys, auto-tensioner, etc. Do it ONCE, do it RIGHT. Re-assemble everything and put the car in time. Then do a compression test to verify the condition of the head/engine. OR, option #2 is to rip all the timing assembly off, then yank the head as well. Take it to a machine shop, give them $35-40 and have the head vacuum tested. That will tell you if you have bent valves or not. Either way, it's not going to be pretty. I wish you luck.

 

[5150DSM]

Thanks for replying.
I never had this problem before and the flywheel is the original stocker. Didn't mean to be vague about the timing; with a straight edge across the cam bolt centerline and the dowel pins at 12:00 the exhaust cam was retarded by 1/2 tooth.(I did not do this intentionally) I didn't try to turn the cams via the cam bolts because I was thinking along the same line as you, that contact was already being made; I didn't want to make things any worse than they had to be. Any ideas about the starter? I watched in on the bench and the gear extended correctly and is not overly worn, I can't think of any reason why it suddenly wouldn't engage the flywheel after operating correctly for over a year.
Thanks
Tony

 

[huafist]

A starter can bench test fine and still be dead. If the brushes in the back of the starter motor are really worn, then it'll bench test fine, but it won't be able to generate enough juice to turn the flywheel. You've got two choices - if you're familiar with them, disassemble the starter and examine the brushes. You can buy a brush set at your local auto parts store for like $25.00. If you're not familiar with them, find someone else with a DSM and sweet talk them into letting you try their starter.

Before I turned it over though I'd take all my accesssory belts and pulleys off, pull my lower timing cover, and check the timing belt.

 

[5150DSM]

A starter can bench test fine and still be dead. If the brushes in the back of the starter motor are really worn, then it'll bench test fine, but it won't be able to generate enough juice to turn the flywheel. You've got two choices - if you're familiar with them, disassemble the starter and examine the brushes. You can buy a brush set at your local auto parts store for like $25.00. If you're not familiar with them, find someone else with a DSM and sweet talk them into letting you try their starter.

Before I turned it over though I'd take all my accesssory belts and pulleys off, pull my lower timing cover, and check the timing belt.

Thanks, I may have some hope, I can rebuild a starter. Now to coerce a local DSM'r into helping do this timing belt shit.

 

[huafist]

Have you found out yet if the belt is intact or not?

 

[5150DSM]

Have you found out yet if the belt is intact or not?

Intact is sort of a relative term at this point...
The belt is in one piece and attached, however, it's been whittled down to about half of its former width. Upon closer examination it appears this has been going on for some time, as the timing cover shows signs of prolonged rubbing. Obviously the belt needs to be changed, along with the rest of the front cover but I am now leaning back towards the starter as the culprit in my no-start situation.

 

[5150DSM]

My parents are so cool. I'm 29 and haven't been living at home for about 15yrs but they still are willing to help me out when I have an emergency. I got my folks to donate $500.00 to the timing belt/head project that just came up. I will be ordering the timing belt kit from Slowboy tomorrow and I'm looking for a used 1G head right now. I'm pulling the head today to find out the extent of the damage but judging by the belts, it ain't gonna be pretty. Thanks for the help in getting to this point, I'm sure I'm going to need lots of advice over the next few days. Which brings me to the question of the day... What exactly should I be looking for when I pull the head? Will the valves be obviously damaged if they are bent, or do I have to dig deeper? This the first time I have had the head off of a 4G63 so I'm just looking for some experienced input.
Thanks and Aloha,
Tony

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

I will be ordering the timing belt kit from Slowboy tomorrow and I'm looking for a used 1G head right now.

You can save a lot of money and just buy the parts you need from www.jnztuning.com . Might come out a little cheaper. While you are in there, replace the water pump. One from Autozone will work fine, cost you about $35-40.

Which brings me to the question of the day... What exactly should I be looking for when I pull the head? Will the valves be obviously damaged if they are bent, or do I have to dig deeper?

I would take the head to a machine shop and have them vacuum test the head. Cost is anywhere from $25-40. They will tell you which cylinder is leaking, and can tell you exactly which valves are bad.

 

[5150DSM]

Finally got the timing cover off...
Hmmm, do our motors come equipped with kitty cats? No, seriously, do they?


J/K, Seems the balance shaft belt thought it would be funny to disentegrate, there's only about 5 inches of the belt left, the rest is coiled kitty hair. I wouldn't believe the mess if I hadn't encountered first hand, it's really ugly.(Though I'm sure, I'm not the first to see this)Anyway, what was left of the BSB got lodged in one of the pulleys and brought the works to a grinding halt, finally stripping about 4 inches of teeth off of the timing belt. The balance shafts are 180* out of phase but the cam timing is only off by 1/2 a tooth on the exhaust side; there's a good chance the BSB stopped everything before the pistons were introduced to the valves. I am going to replace the timing belt, balance shaft belt and water pump, clean the shit out of everything, re-time the fu(ker and see what happens. Thanks again everyone for the help and advice, I'll probably need more...
BTW- How the fu(k do I get to the hole on the hydraulic tensioner to release it?
Aloha

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Finally got the timing cover off...
Hmmm, do our motors come equipped with kitty cats? No, seriously, do they?


J/K, Seems the balance shaft belt thought it would be funny to disentegrate, there's only about 5 inches of the belt left, the rest is coiled kitty hair. I wouldn't believe the mess if I hadn't encountered first hand, it's really ugly.(Though I'm sure, I'm not the first to see this)Anyway, what was left of the BSB got lodged in one of the pulleys and brought the works to a grinding halt, finally stripping about 4 inches of teeth off of the timing belt. The balance shafts are 180* out of phase but the cam timing is only off by 1/2 a tooth on the exhaust side; there's a good chance the BSB stopped everything before the pistons were introduced to the valves. I am going to replace the timing belt, balance shaft belt and water pump, clean the shit out of everything, re-time the fu(ker and see what happens. Thanks again everyone for the help and advice, I'll probably need more...
BTW- How the fu(k do I get to the hole on the hydraulic tensioner to release it?
Aloha

Sucks. You are most likely going to redo the timing, only to have some bent valves. If you don't, consider yourself lucky as hell. As for the tensioner, just cut the timing belt. You gonna replace it anyway. Once it's cut, just unbolt the tensioner. Don't reuse it, unless it's relatively new. If it is, put it in a vise, and compress SLOWLY. When the holes line up, stick a pin in there to hold the pin down.

 

[5150DSM]

Sucks. You are most likely going to redo the timing, only to have some bent valves. If you don't, consider yourself lucky as hell. As for the tensioner, just cut the timing belt. You gonna replace it anyway. Once it's cut, just unbolt the tensioner. Don't reuse it, unless it's relatively new. If it is, put it in a vise, and compress SLOWLY. When the holes line up, stick a pin in there to hold the pin down.

Really? When I saw that the TB had only slipped a little tiny bit I had hopes that things in the head would be OK.
I think I will pull the head and have it vacuum tested after all... $30 to know the truth before I do the belts is better than $35 for a compression tester afterwards, only to find out my valves are shot and I gotta redo the whole fu(king thing. Pulling the head is going to be such a motherfu(ker on the side of the road but I guess its no worse than doing the front case.
Thanks for curbing my optimism back to reality.
Aloha

 

[tburda]

My friend had a 91 laser, N/T that i was driving and the timing belt skipped teeth. we got lucky and it didnt bend any valves, this was a low speed, maybe 10mph turn just like you experienced. For only 1/2 tooth skip on the belt, i would doubt the pistons hit the valves.