Eclipse Dieing?

[Eclipse223]

97 GSX Eclipse 156k on it AUTO fallowing mods: T28 ported, 3'downpipe, Full IC piping, cold air Intake, Resonators removed but still stock mufflers. boost around 13 to 15 psi it varies for some reason and some times it will run 17 to 18 psi depends on how cold no clue why. Also it has NGK plugs and wires put in 2 days ago same time I removed the resonators. It just feels like it won't go anywhere I am not sure if the eng. has problems or head or what but what should I do to find out why it is not running up to par I am totally lost I thought it might be plugs but that did not help when I changed that out. Timing belt is new maybe 10k on it. I Pray I don't have to rebuild it that's the last thing I need. All Ideas are open ### help Thanks Guys.


Thanks Guys can always depend on fellow DSMer's

 

[GSX93DSM]

Im sure but did it happen before you took off resonators. If not maybe backpressure is an issue.

 

[Eclipse223]

No it acutely helped a little not just daily driving taking them off. It just seems like the eng is shot if it does not boost the car does not hardly move shouldn't it have a little power with out the boost???

 

[GSX93DSM]

Possiblity motor need rebuilt if it crankwalked you would know it. Check into the turbo might not cause everything but is worth checking into.

 

[Eclipse223]

Any one else????

 

[kenamond]

Did you gap your new plugs properly?

Also, on cold days seeing a higher peak boost may be boost creep.

Do you have a logger?

EDIT: So you had the problem before the plug change...did you gap the old plugs yourself and then gap the new ones the same way? If so, what gap?

 

[Eclipse223]

The Gap is set at .030

Boost Creep?

 

[Ceddy]

Do a compression test. Will show if engine is ok.
A compression guage is pretty cheap.

Check for leaking vacuum hoses.
Or a shorted wire around the areas you were working.

 

[kenamond]

The Gap is set at .030

Boost Creep?

Gap looks right.

Below I describe boost creep in very gory details. It's not that I think you need your hand held through the description, it's just that I felt like describing it. Forgive me.

Boost creep:
The turbocharger has a wastegate somewhere upwind of the turbine wheel (in the turbine housing or off of the exhaust manifold). The wastegate is just a valve. If opened, it reroutes some of the exhaust such that it bypasses the turbine wheel (there is plumbing to carry the exhaust gasses around the turbine wheel and either vent to atmosphere or rejoin the exhaust gases downwind of the turbine wheel somewhere). If the valve is closed, all exhaust goes through the turbine. Since the turbine drives the compressor, you can limit how hard you drive your compressor with the wastegate by regulating how much of the exhaust goes through the turbine.

Obviously, your compressor creates your boost. So you can limit boost by limiting how much exhaust gas goes through your turbine.

So you have a boost controller which does nothing until your boost reaches a certain level. After this, it lets that boost through to the actuator on the wastegate.

Normally, you hit your specified boost level, and the boost controller opens and sends the boost signal on to the wastegate which opens a bit to start bypassing the turbine. If the boost goes higher, it opens the wastegate more until it is eventually fully open.

When you are at full throttle and under full boost, the exhaust gasses are split up. Some is going through the turbine wheel, and the rest is going out the wastegate and bypassing the turbine wheel. The amount going through the turbine is just enough to generate the desired level of boost. If the boost were higher, the wastegate would open more, and this would decrease the flow through the turbine and, subsequently, the drive on the compressor which would decrease the boost. If the boost were lower, the wastegate would be closed more, and this would increase the flow through the turbine and, subsequently, the drive on the compressor which would increase the boost. It auto-corrects.

Boost creep is when the wastegate isn't able to let enough exhaust gas bypass the turbine even when the wastegate is fully open, so your boost controller opens the wastegate all the way, but it still isn't enough to stop spooling up the turbo, and the boost exceeds what you have your MBC set to (the boost controller is telling the wastegate to open all the way, so it's done all that it can do). So the turbine will be driven harder generating more boost which generates more exhaust which generates more boost, etc., so your boost "creeps" up beyond where it is supposed to be limited. Although it is called "creep", it happens pretty quickly.

If you have a nice, large exhaust, it makes it easier for exhaust gasses to go through the turbine, so given the option of going through the turbine or wastegate, exhaust gasses have an easier time going through the turbine than if the exhaust were smaller and more restrictive. So it is common for folks to add a large exhaust and run into creep problems. Many people solve their creep problems by either adding restrictions to their exhaust (this reduces power and isn't the correct solution), or they improve the flow through the wastegate by either porting the wastegate passages (upwind and down) out to be larger and smoother-flowing or by moving to an external wastegate that flows enough exhaust.

If you're turbo is creeping, the flow through the turbine increases, and the backpressure (pressure between the turbine wheel and the exhaust valves) also increases. With higher pressure on the upwind side of the wastegate, more exhaust is pushed out through the wastegate. Eventually, the backpressure gets high enough that enough gas is pushed out of the wastegate to stop increasing the boost; the split of the gasses between the turbine and wastegate is just perfect so that the turbine is not accelerating (it finds it's "happy" spot). At this point, your boost will stabilize and not go higher.

However, this "happy" spot is often way too high for the setup in the car. Either you're flowing more air than you can add fuel to (your injectors are wide open and still not able to add enough fuel to not go lean), and you hit fuel cut (the ECU sees that the injectors are at their limits, so it stops telling them to open at all so that you don't go lean and start consuming (burning) the internals of your combustion chamber). Or the turbine drives the compressor way beyond its peak efficiency, the compressor starts heating the air up A LOT (when a compressor is asked to generate too much boost, it will do it but it will also spit out much hotter air - it is less efficient), the hotter air entering the combustion chamber detonates prematurely causing knock, the knock sensor "hears" this, it tells the ECU, and the ECU retards your timing which drops power significantly.

A word about knock. When the spark plug sparks, the air-fuel mixture surrounding the spark ignites. The bits of air-fuel next to the burning air-fuel ignite. This propogates away from the spark. When air-fuel is lit, it gets much hotter. When things get much hotter, they want to get bigger. So you have a growing bubble of hot, pissed-off, burned air-fuel. It is growing because it is hotter and wants to expand, and it is growing because it is lighting air-fuel just outside the surface of the bubble (ignition is "contageous"). Since it is growing at a steady rate, this ends up ramping up the cylinder pressures quite smoothly. Also, because it is expanding, it is crowding the unburned air-fuel elsewhere in the combustion chamber (outside of the bubble). Also keep in mind that the volume of the combustion chamber is decreasing due to the piston cruising up the cylinder toward top-dead-center, so you also have this additional compression heating up the whole shooting match. If you compress (crowd) any gas, it will get hotter. Air-fuel will ignite on its own without a spark if you heat it up too much. So if you send a really hot air-fuel charge into the combustion chamber even before the spark goes off, it is that much closer to lighting itself without a spark. If you light the spark plug, start growing this bubble, and start crowding (and therefore heating) the surrounding, already-too-hot air-fuel mix, it will light itself quite violently. This is knock. This "detonation" is very violent compared to the smooth, growing-bubble, and it can be heard. The knock sensor is a microphone screwed into the block. It feeds what it hears to the ECU. The ECU "listens" for this violent detonation and can distinguish it from the normal, growing-bubble sound. If the ECU hears knock, it can make it go away by delaying when the bubble started to grow which is when the spark plug sparked which is your timing - it delays/retards the timing. Okay, that was more than a word about knock, but I'm on a roll. If you've read this far, consider yourself lucky that I didn't elaborate on why retarded timing loses power .

I don't care what anyone else says, but if you have a creep problem, it is 100% because the wastegate design is INADEQUATE. Some claim that the EVOIII Big 16g "wants to run at 20psi", but this is crap. The wastegate can't flow enough exhaust, and the turbo finds its "happy" spot at around 18-20psi which is often an unpleasant suprise for folks without fuel upgrades (they creep, hit fuel cut, and smash their lip on the steering wheel when the car goes from 350hp to 0hp instantly). If the wastegate flowed properly, you could run 12psi on an EVOIII. But I digress.

This is more likely to happen on cold days. Don't ask me why, because I honestly don't know. I can speculate, but I won't.

As always, if I'm wrong, explain to me why I'm wrong, and if you're convincing, I'll thank you for it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Eclipse223]

Ok so where do I get a better waste gate and how do I take care of the knock if I have it what do I do.... Help and thank you so much I read that like 3 times so it's in my head THANKS AGAIN....

 

[kenamond]

ok so where do i get a better wastegate and how do i take care of the knock if i have it what do i do.... Help and thank you so much i read that like 3 times so its in my head THANKS AGAIN....

First off, when did you first notice the poor performance? Was it after you upgraded a certain part? If so, what part(s)?

You can test for boost creep by disconnecting the wastegate actuator arm from the lever on the turbine housing, then doing a full throttle run and looking at the max boost during the run. Before you do the test run, make sure you can rotate the wastegate lever on the turbine housing freely with your fingers (with the actuator arm disconnected). Since the WG is free to open, all of the exhaust can bypass the turbine. If you see more than a few psi boost during this test, then it is creep; even with the WG wide open, too much exhaust is flowing through the turbine and driving the compressor to generate boost. However, you say you only saw this on a cold day, so you might only see more than a few psi boost during this test if it's cold enough outside. If the boost creep is enough that you hit fuel cut often, you can either port the wastegate passage (entrance and exit in the turbine housing) and the O2 housing's wastegate exit (the plumbing that guides the exhaust around the turbine and back into the exhaust stream), or you can switch to an external wastegate (wastegate mounted on the exhaust manifold). Here is a picture of the port job I did on my FP BigT28 - I opened the whole thing up, but I also focused on a larger, smoother wastegate entrance:

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You really should get a logger. This will tell you a whole lot about what's going on. For example, it will tell you if you are having knock problems and will hint at boost leaks.

Have you done a boost leak test recently? If not, you really should. There are trillions of threads on boost leak testing, but if you need any help, just ask. If you have bad leaks, you'll feel the power loss and you'll beat up your turbo.

Until you can provide some more info, we're going to be guessing.

Keep us posted!

 

[Eclipse223]

I am not even sure if it is running wrong. I am pretty sure it should be faster then what it is with what's done to it. it wont even pull anything lower then a 9.5 at 73mph in the 1/8th mile and that's with a bad launch, IT has trouble building boost off the launch and its an auto so it can do it all the time but some times it wont do it?... I think it should be running high 8's to low 9's but what do I know. And yes I am talking about the 1/8th mile.

 

[kenamond]

Get a logger. Then you can find out if there's anything odd going on with your fuel system, timing, O2, and knock.

Do a boost leak test. If you have any leaks between the compressor outlet and the intake ports on the head, the ECU will have measured that air already (the MAS is right after the air filter), so it will expect it to pass into the combustion chamber and will add fuel based on this measurement to get a proper air/fuel ratio. If air is leaking, then too much fuel will be added, and you'll run rich which will decrease power. Also, if you're leaking air, there will be a drop in pressure at each leak as you go along the intake system from the compressor outlet to the head, so the pressure you're seeing on your boost gauge which is measured from the intake manifold may be 15psi, but the pressure at the compressor outlet may be 20psi or more. If this is the case, the compressor is beyond its efficiency range and will be blowing hotter air. This will wear out the turbo faster. Also, the hotter air will lead to knock, and as I already mentioned before, knock will result in retarded timing which will also decrease power. Excessive knock will destroy your motor (the sudden BANG takes its toll on things).

You can have boost leaks at any of the intercooler pipe couplers, the BOV flange, the BOV internal valve, the intercooler (could have holes in it from rocks or corrosion), the throttle body gaskets (both sides of the TB), TB vaccuum lines, injector insulators (between the injectors and the head), the intake-manifold-to-head gasket, the TB shaft seals (the shaft that your throttle cable turns to open/close the throttle), the BISS screw o-ring on the TB, or due to a bad PCV valve (on the rear, passenger side of the valve cover). Most of these leaks can be found by disconnecting your intake pipe from the compressor inlet, clamping a boost leak tester to it, pressurizing the intake at the tester (they have a tire valve on them) to a few psi beyond the peak boost you want to run and see how long it holds that pressure. If you have all of the leaks fixed, it should hold for 30 seconds. If it is leaking, take a spray bottle full of super-soapy water and spray everything down. Then you re-pressurize and check for bubbles. Fix EVERY leak until you can hold that pressure for 30 seconds or so. When I got my first round of mods done, I had leaks at my TB gaskets, had a leaking PCV valve, leaks at my injector insulators, and a leak in my Dejon UICP flange (the weld itself was leaking). I haven't fixed the last leak (in the UICP flange weld), but it made a HUGE difference in the power of my car. Also, before I fixed any of the leaks, I was only getting 8 mpg because I was running SOOOO rich.

Do a compression test. If you see anything wrong in the compression test, follow up with a leakdown test. Low compression will decrease power and can tell you when you need to rebuild the motor or the valvetrane. A compression test won't tell you what's worn out if you have low compression, but it will tell you that something is leaking too much. If you see low compression, then you take your car somewhere that does leakdown tests. This test will tell you what's worn out: piston rings, valve seats, valve stem seals, or a blown head gasket. Also, if you have bad compression, you might actually have problems during the boost leak test, because the air is leaking inside the motor somewhere, but if that happens and you've fixed all other boost leaks outside the motor, then there is a way to know it's due to internal leaks, and a compression test would verify this.

The boost leak test will deal with issues outside the motor. The compression and leakdown tests will deal with issues inside the motor.

You could also try some Lucas fuel treatment to clean up your injectors, and you could try Seafoam (do a search on this forum) to clean deposits out of your combustion chamber. These deposits can make "hot spots" in the combustion chamber which can lead to knock.

If you fix all boost leaks, have good compression, clean your injectors and combustion chamber, and buy a logger ($150 for everything including a refurbished Palm PDA), then come back and we'll figure this out. But you have to do the boost leak test first!! This may be your problem.

That's all I can recommend.

Good luck!

 

[Eclipse223]

Ok guys I am going to get a waste gate p.l.z tell me if any of these with work on my BIG T28 Ported. I have no clue what to find. Also how hard is it to put one of these on? What else will I need?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/35MM...0QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HKS-S-46MM-TURBO-EXTERNAL-WASTEGATE-ECLIPSE-RX7-SUPRA_W0QQitemZ270003768517QQihZ017QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/hks-JDM-38mm-wastegate-6-Psi-Spring-4g63-3S-GTE-6psi_W0QQitemZ270002622902QQihZ017QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-HKS-S-50MM-EXTERNAL-WASTEGATE-KIT-UNIVERSAL-FIT-ALL_W0QQitemZ290002427512QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem




Sorry guys I have no clue what I am looking for in waste gates and I don't want to spend a crap load this is just my daily driver. But I want to enjoy it also. Help



Thanks always guys all of you r great Thanks. Brien

 

[fastestdsm]

does it have hard time shifting?

 

[Eclipse223]

No its shift's great. I love the auto in it for an auto I am impressed

 

[kenamond]

Don't get an external wastegate. Yet.

Wastegates don't make power. You are noticing poor performance. Fix that first. The wastegate is only going to help you with a creep problem, but that's not happening very often.

You need to find out what's WRONG with your car before you do anything else.

And if you want to go with an external gate, you need an O2 eliminator DP to block the internal WG, and you need to make modifications to your exhaust manifold (or pay someone to do it) or buy a new mani with an external WG flange already on it. Those external wastegates don't bolt onto anything you have without modification (cut a hole in the mani and weld a tube and flange on it). It's not "bolt-on".

BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT YET! Your WG actuator arm might be hitting your heat shield, the WG solenoid might be flaking out, or you might have a leak in your WG vaccuum line. Find out what's wrong FIRST.

And if you want more power, spend your money on something else, but it sounds like you shouldn't do any modding until you fix all of your boost leaks and check the compression of your motor.

Be patient and do this in the right order.

 

[Eclipse223]

Oh I thought the wastgate was the problem my bad.... hmm so do the air leak test I made one last night but ended up having to take my fiancée to the ER we r having a little girl in Nov. and had some problems but everything is great now. but still have not gotten to do the boost leak test... also how do I check the compression do I take it some where or do I do it my self what do I need to do it my self item by item and detail for detail sorry guys. Use to working on fords. Thanks again.

 

[kenamond]

Oh I thought the wastgate was the problem my bad.... hmm so do the air leak test I made one last night but ended up having to take my fiancée to the ER we r having a little girl in Nov. and had some problems but everything is great now. but still have not gotten to do the boost leak test... also how do I check the compression do I take it some where or do I do it my self what do I need to do it my self item by item and detail for detail sorry guys. Use to working on fords. Thanks again.

Glad everything is okay w/ the mom/baby. I have 2 kids.

Compression test how-to here. You can do it yourself if you have a compression tester (can buy them at Autozone, etc.) or you can pay any mechanic to do one.

Leakdown test how-to here. You can also do this yourself, but it's more involved than a compression test. I'd recommend taking it to a shop, but call first, as many mistake a leakdown test for a compression test (tell them it's the one which requires the compressor).

You can make your own boost leak tester (kinda sounds like you already did) for a few bucks, but make sure it seals (the tire valve and the ends of the coupler (both ends). If you don't have an air compressor, you can get a portable tank (I got an 11 gallon tank for $60 at my local hardware store) and fill/refill it at a gas station. And get a spray bottle (like Windex or something), clean it out and put dish soap and water (good amount of soap).

Good luck!

 

[Eclipse223]

Ok i built the leak tester now i am try to test it the boost Guage will not even go up at all how long do i have to hold it on there i have had it on ther for probly 3 to 5 mins and the boost guage would not move at alll wth????? i am lost... any other idaw?

 

[Eclipse223]

Ok nvm, On the fron of the turbo there is a leak coming from very bad very bad leak. it is right between the turbo and the radiator and inbetween the intake side and the exhaust side i am not sure what it is any ideas?????

 

[kenamond]

Ok nvm, On the fron of the turbo there is a leak coming from very bad very bad leak. it is right between the turbo and the radiator and inbetween the intake side and the exhaust side i am not sure what it is any ideas?????

I'm confused. Is it leaking from the compressor housing, like between the compressor and the center section or is there a crack in your compressor housing? Are you seeing soapy bubbles or just going based on where you think you hear a leak?

 

[Eclipse223]

Um in between the turbo area um the compressor ugh.

 

[Eclipse223]

ok found 3 leaks so far the first one i found was the turbo to lower inter cooler piping had a slice in it about 3 and half inch' long. when i filled it up wiht air it would not go past the 5 psi on the guage. 2nd one was on the oh crap cant think of what it is called where the 2 vacum lines go under the cold air intake and in to that little electric thing and the 2 vacum lines r right next to each outer. 3rd leak was at the BOV on the Gasket so i put a new on better one on. so we r taking a brake for a min so far we r up 2 to 10psi so there r probly a few more leaks around just got to find them.


sorry for the spelling or and crap in the grage on the laptop.

 

[Eclipse223]

Ok guys got all the leaks fixed but i have a problem with my BOV it leaked during the test should it leak at all during the test if so how bad should it leak because it only leaked a little it still would go up to like 14 to 15 psi just took awhile we put a flang on where the BOV went and it would go all the way up. so untill i get a new BOV can i leave the Flang on there?


Thanks guys