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DSM Stock Replacement Manifold Back-to-Back Dyno Testing

ist dwa

Proven Member
469
241
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
OH really, so you made a whole thread to disprove cast is king and that your manifold is better than FPs, you really didn't think that would ruffle feathers? Sure keep posting results, possibly skewed by those who are making them. This is bad marketing at best and shameless. Send it all off to 3rd party if you want to do this and get Robert's approval. You have put him in a bad spot, does he now have to defend his product or just nod his head said all your data is correct, Did you ask him if it would be ok to do this?
 

MorrisonFab

Supporting Vendor
250
733
May 28, 2017
Johnson Creek, Wisconsin
OH really, so you made a whole thread to disprove cast is king and that your manifold is better than FPs, you really didn't think that would ruffle feathers? Sure keep posting results, possibly skewed by those who are making them. This is bad marketing at best and shameless. Send it all off to 3rd party if you want to do this and get Robert's approval. You have put him in a bad spot, does he now have to defend his product or just nod his head said all your data is correct, Did you ask him if it would be ok to do this?

Robert has been awesome, as always!
We have been in close contact with him throughout and he gave a ton of great info and insight during the test and when analyzing the results. We both know that his cast manifold and our fabricated manifold are in different catagories/markets :)
We've said all along that the FP manifold is no slouch, especially for the money.
 

lasthope05

Proven Member
1,163
270
Mar 31, 2006
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
This manifold is tested by a third party that also happens to be sponserd by FP so how is this biased?

It isnt putting any product down. It's has it's own market. On one end you have a proven slower spooling top end manifold(FP ) compared to a stock 1g/2g/E3 and the other a higher quality tubular that makes more power across the board. Different price points and different performance points.

Also it seems like the only person getting upset is you. Everyone else here is just looking at the data.

Also cast is not always the king when it comes to the DSM platform. The stock manifolds crack, FP race cracks, hafe/sbr v1 cracks, erl cracks.... the only ones I haven't really seen are the Evo 3 and hafe v2.
 
Last edited:

Vegas Smith

Proven Member
4,609
2,388
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
OH really, so you made a whole thread to disprove cast is king and that your manifold is better than FPs, you really didn't think that would ruffle feathers? Sure keep posting results, possibly skewed by those who are making them. This is bad marketing at best and shameless. Send it all off to 3rd party if you want to do this and get Robert's approval. You have put him in a bad spot, does he now have to defend his product or just nod his head said all your data is correct, Did you ask him if it would be ok to do this?
Come on man, you don't have to be like that. I think you owe them an apology for calling this shameful. You think they're going to put FP out of business and in turn put themselves in the penthouse because they made a superior manifold at 4x the cost? People will be running the FP just as much as they ever did and if they want a cherry on top, like I will next Christmas, then they'll give the MF a try.
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,346
1,157
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
OH really, so you made a whole thread to disprove cast is king and that your manifold is better than FPs, you really didn't think that would ruffle feathers? Sure keep posting results, possibly skewed by those who are making them. This is bad marketing at best and shameless. Send it all off to 3rd party if you want to do this and get Robert's approval. You have put him in a bad spot, does he now have to defend his product or just nod his head said all your data is correct, Did you ask him if it would be ok to do this?


LOL, so I'll be the asshole. So what big name are you? If you were such an expert, I doubt you'd be pissing time away trolling threads. Maybe you should learn how to tune, and you wouldn't be ruining manifolds.

For the rest that may be on the fence about cast vs tubular. I used to be "cast is king" I love my godspeed turbonetics knockoff, and I knew well that a tube one would probably work "better", but the reliability worried me. Back then I was younger and dumber, and didn't fully understand what I was doing. I think I probably had stuff way lean and it made a lot of EGT, and I had a lot of trouble with a couple tube manifolds. So I got a cast godspeed t3, and ran the piss out of my car for the next 3-4 years, and learned a lot. Fast forward a few years, I'm now back on a tube header/manifold thing. It's a "junk one", an old school SFP t4 that is MILD STEEL(it's probably older than many reading this), and I have this monster 50lb garret vgt turbo hanging off it. The car makes 700+, and guess what it doesn't crack. I beat it mercilessly on the street, i take it on road trips, and it just keeps going. The key here is that I fixed the tune issues, and got the EGT's in check.

There's many parts to tube headers failing, high temperatures can affect the metallurgy, creep, high temp lowers the tensile and yield strength, and finally thermal stresses (the big one). We all know metal expands when it gets hot. Not all parts are the same temperature, so not all parts expand as much. If the header is a bad design and the thermal expansion is not accounted for, it can exert extra stress on the material as it literally rips it's self apart. The take away here is: more temperature, more stress. While the increased temperature is increasing stress, it is also lowering the strength of the metal. Get it hot enough, and eventually it will rupture, but that's way past what we see. We end up in a fatigue failure - repeated stress and release. Up to say 50% of the yield strength of steels you can do it infinite amount of times, at 100% of yield strength, you get 1 time, it's linear between there. So by having high EGT we increase stress and reduce the strength. I'd suggest that manifold life is probably inversely proportional to the square of temperature.

That being said, there are several things to do to keep a manifold intact. It starts with good design practices. At the oem level they run finite element analysis coupled with computational fluid dynamics to calculate the heat distribution, and thus the stresses in the manifold. This is $100k/yr software, plus a $100k/yr engineer to run it, so no, no tuner shop is doing it. At our level it requires a fabricator with experience, one that cares, one with intuition, and one with an understanding of the engineering/design principles. Knowing Matt for many years, and Samantha for some too, they have all that.

After design practices it comes down to material selection, and keeping it cool.

Bottom line is best material, and the best welder in the world won't help if it's a bad design, or you cook it.
 

GST with PSI

DSM Wiseman
2,678
1,383
Jul 27, 2005
San Diego, California
FP manifolds are garbage in terms of reliability. They almost always crack and it doesn't take much.

That hasn't been my experience. My FP exhaust manifold has seen plenty of abuse and multiple turbos. I've seen some crack, but I think saying they almost always crack and are garbage in terms of reliability is pretty far from the truth.

If @MorrisonFab wants to send me a loaner to test I'll put it on the Galant and send it on the dyno. My setup is much less "spicy" than Nate's. Also my car is manual trans + ECMlink, so no converter slip and posting logs here on the forum could absolutely be a thing :hmm:
 

lasthope05

Proven Member
1,163
270
Mar 31, 2006
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
You've got yourself a unicorn. I've personally seen 3 of them crack.
 

Tom N

Supporting Member
427
32
Sep 27, 2002
Sarasota, Florida
I’ve never had a FP Race manifold crack or a tubular manifold crack. I’ve never own junk tubulars either though. I’ve only had Shearer and MF ones. And I’m not exactly easy on stuff. I have broken all kind of drivetrain stuff though. That’s a much bigger concern on these cars then a quality manifold breaking.

Props to Nate on taking the time to not just do the dyno test but take the time to make a post showing as much data as he did. That’s hugely time consuming going threw the logs like that.

I do think there’s an issue somewhere if he’s having trouble holding 44psi on this turbo though.
 

Bleakley

Proven Member
405
96
Jan 29, 2017
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
(...). Fabricators have come a long way in twelve years. Catch up.
If this isn’t one of the more underrated comments I’ve seen.
Quoting for truth. The bars just keep getting raised. The practices are getting better. Very precise, yet repeatable. VERY good.

And the pride in the work, the craftsmanship, almost ALWAYS shows. Morrison, Matt is on another level. Love seeing the hard work pay off brother. Great job man!!!
 

MorrisonFab

Supporting Vendor
250
733
May 28, 2017
Johnson Creek, Wisconsin
If this isn’t one of the more underrated comments I’ve seen.
Quoting for truth. The bars just keep getting raised. The practices are getting better. Very precise, yet repeatable. VERY good.

And the pride in the work, the craftsmanship, almost ALWAYS shows. Morrison, Matt is on another level. Love seeing the hard work pay off brother. Great job man!!!

I can’t take all the credit. Samantha does a hell of a lot, too; Morrison Fabrications was born because of an dream she had.

We appreciate the kind words
 

ist dwa

Proven Member
469
241
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
And suck it....... I've forgot more about race cars than most will know, it's almost tiring being right all the time.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 

MorrisonFab

Supporting Vendor
250
733
May 28, 2017
Johnson Creek, Wisconsin
Just as a reminder, Robert was very involved with the testing and results. We spoke with him in great depth about designing, creating, and testing it. He was in full support. He still is.
Additionally, we covered this test in our tech seminar last weekend at the shootout; Robert was present, engaging, and supported us delving into the test results. He knew what we were planning to discuss and attended it. You can see the seminar here.

Please do not make this into something it isn’t.
 

NitroEagle

Probationary Member
5
3
Dec 27, 2012
Wellington, Ohio
I thought FB was cringe, you guys actually logged into a forum in this decade to spew this BS against M.F.? Wow.

Sorry their manifold isn't $150 so it can sit on your shelf until you part the car out.
 
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