Drifting [Merged 9-8]

[tsibryan]

Drifting is to driving what the backward baseball cap is to millinery.

I don't get it. What is the correlation between the (wearing of) backwards baseball cap and women's clothing?

Millinery means hat making, or refers to fine hats.

But about drifting, I like the concept and the skill it takes, but I dislike the stupid stuff like the haircuts and the poses. The idea is cool, but sometimes the scene is a little to ricey for me. ex: Almost every pro drift car has a carbon fiber wing perched a foot above the trunk, when the purpose is to lose traction in the rear.

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Millinery means hat making, or refers to fine hats.

But about drifting, I like the concept and the skill it takes, but I dislike the stupid stuff like the haircuts and the poses. The idea is cool, but sometimes the scene is a little to ricey for me. ex: Almost every pro drift car has a carbon fiber wing perched a foot above the trunk, when the purpose is to lose traction in the rear.

Maybe the wing is inverted like an airplane wing. Maybe tied to the dead pedal so they can adjust the amount of lift the rear end gets.

 

[thecman02]

For the YOU CAN'T DRIFT A FWD... you can. If you get a real loose/oversteering fwd, and and a well adjusted e-brake you can start and hold a drift through a whole corner.... and it takes much more skill then rwd.... but because it is so hard and rediculous it isn't professionally used. Using them rwd are common practice because if your loosing your drift you have multiple ways of keeping your drift *you can side step your clutch a few times.... really bad on clutch but it is a technique in low hp cars, mat the gas in higher hp rwds, and u can always tap a lil e-brake.... fwd are limited because they got e-brake, and abrupt lifting of the gas... which with a well tuned suspension will transfer weight to the front wheels, off of the back wheels helping them to loose traction and continue the drift.... plus it isn't commonly used because besides being a sweet sport/ event... wouldn't u rather watch a RWD SMOKING OFF IT's tires around a corner... then a fwd... with nil tire smoke ... it's just that much more exciting to watch....

I love drifting though. I love Drag Racing, I love autocross, and i love track days... I love motorsports in general. It's all good.

 

[Revolution]

Okay I used to mess around in parking lots when I was a kid but it's illegeal, it's still dangerous but instead of endangering yourself and trees your endangering people, pets, yourself and your drivers liscence. I also think he is refering to (and if not I am refering to) the people who go out and do a few donuts or try drifting around some imaginary corners and all of a sudden think their a pro.
I also don't think he was comparing Nascar and drifting on a level of skill but instead popularity. If you compared it to music Nascar and the popular form of drifting coulde be compared to nelly and rally could be compared to squarepusher. IMO
Nascar is not my kind of racing but I do know there is at least a comparable levle of skill required to take a stock car around a track at 200 & some odd MPH. In fact I don't think you can say any kind of any thing takes any more skill than any thing else, it's all a matter of what level you take it too.

And who was this aimed at? "Have you ever featherd the throttle through a chicane doing 70km/ph in you'r 10 sec car"
I have but I don't have a ten second car.
Have you ever feathered the gas going 90 (oh and that would be MPH not KPH to avoid any confusion) through a sweeping corner on dirt sideways enough you need to use your side windows to spot your exit with a sharp dropoff on the outside and a rock face on the inside. That's what I call drifting

Have fun running over cats and light poles.

Ok Ok maybe he's talking about Johnny Knoxville in a geo metro going around imaginary pillons thinking that by hitting Mrs. Thompsons fat cat would give him extra points.


I dont rally I wish I could but I'd rather build an all out performer meant solley for the pavement.

I agree with your statements but drifting is in other words a controlled slide , .
Different angles and different throttle incraments equates to different inertia anlges ,it's not easy thats all im stating , and no worries i'll make shure not to hit any dogs or light posts while cliking off the ftd .

With that same token be careful with those wild thorn bushes I hear they can be a pita to get out of the engine bay .

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

For the YOU CAN'T DRIFT A FWD... you can. If you get a real loose/oversteering fwd, and and a well adjusted e-brake you can start and hold a drift through a whole corner.... and it takes much more skill then rwd.... but because it is so hard and rediculous it isn't professionally used. Using them rwd are common practice because if your loosing your drift you have multiple ways of keeping your drift *you can side step your clutch a few times.... really bad on clutch but it is a technique in low hp cars, mat the gas in higher hp rwds, and u can always tap a lil e-brake.... fwd are limited because they got e-brake, and abrupt lifting of the gas... which with a well tuned suspension will transfer weight to the front wheels, off of the back wheels helping them to loose traction and continue the drift.... plus it isn't commonly used because besides being a sweet sport/ event... wouldn't u rather watch a RWD SMOKING OFF IT's tires around a corner... then a fwd... with nil tire smoke ... it's just that much more exciting to watch....

I love drifting though. I love Drag Racing, I love autocross, and i love track days... I love motorsports in general. It's all good.

The other thing I was thinking about the other day is that you have to push a FWD or AWD harder than a RWD.
If you think about it as having 100 units of traction, If your going around a corner using 99.9 units your not sliding if your using 100.1 units you are sliding well you can take a RWD around a corner well under the threashold of a skid using say 40 units and mash the gas and walk the rear end out but you still have a lot of flexibility and room for mistakes and adjustments. A FWD or AWD you have to take it to 100 units and shift the dynamics to set the wheels you want broken loose. Now you are already using all your potential traction and just pushed over it which means you have no room for mistakes and minamal room for adjustment.

 

[Thomas91169]

fwd "drifting", there is no such thing. if you use the ebrake to get sideways, that is called "ass dragging/sliding". drifting has to do with the front tires being in control, the rear tires loose, the fronts facing out of the turn while the backs are keeping the car "out of control". real drifing has to do with weight transfer to keep the car going sideways.

fwd ass dragging, so you can get the back end to go sideways with the pull of the ebrake, big whoop. as soon as the ebrake is dropped the ass will come right back in line. a real drift the car will mantain the same speed through the whole drift, while ass dragging the car will actually lose speed(since the rears are stopped).

dam n00bs, when will the madness end.

REAL DRIFTING IS RWD ONLY. get it. now go back to your civic on nfsu ebrake slide "drifting".

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I googled in drift techniques. Here's the first link that came up.
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/reviews/20031028/drift_techniques_glossary.html

From that site

FF drift
FF drift, or front wheel drive drift, is a technique in which the E-brake as well as steering and braking techniques are used to balance the car through a corner. Note that the pulling the E-brake is the main technique used to balance the drift.

E-brake drift
A very basic technique in which the driver pulls the E-brake (emergency-brake) to induce rear traction loss and balances the drift through steering and throttle play. Note that this can also be used to correct errors or fine tune drift angles

This method will also work with any properly set up car despite the drivetrain
Faint drift
Performed by rocking the car towards the outside of a turn and then using the rebound of grip to throw the car into the normal cornering direction. This is a rally racing technique used to change vehicle attitudes during cornering, mainly on tight mountain corners.

So will this
Kansei drift
Performed at race speeds when, upon entering a high speed corner, a driver lifts his foot off the throttle to induce a mild oversteer and then blances the drift throught steering and throttle motions. Note that the car used for this style of drift should be a neutral-balanced car so that the oversteer will induce itself. If the car plows through any turn, the technique will not work.

So will most of the other techniques.


Here's another site saying the same thing, also mentioning a FF drift
http://www.modernracer.com/tips/driftingtechniques.html

Oh oh oh
look what I found. It's amazing how much you can learn spending five minutes with google.
www.driftclub.com a site dedicated to the extreme driving style known as drifting and anything relevant to it (Touge/Rallying etc). agreeing with me that they are all closely related.

Three different diagrams showing the three different lines used for three different drivetrain seteps. FF FR & AWD
http://www.driftclub.com/driftdiagrams.htm

And all the rest say the same thing.
Reasearch is a wonderful thing.

That's if for today class dismissed.

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Oh and thomas don't be mad at us because you can't figure out how to drift you FWD.

 

[FireyIce01]

fwd "drifting", there is no such thing. if you use the ebrake to get sideways, that is called "ass dragging/sliding". drifting has to do with the front tires being in control, the rear tires loose, the fronts facing out of the turn while the backs are keeping the car "out of control". real drifing has to do with weight transfer to keep the car going sideways.

fwd ass dragging, so you can get the back end to go sideways with the pull of the ebrake, big whoop. as soon as the ebrake is dropped the ass will come right back in line. a real drift the car will mantain the same speed through the whole drift, while ass dragging the car will actually lose speed(since the rears are stopped).

dam n00bs, when will the madness end.

REAL DRIFTING IS RWD ONLY. get it. now go back to your civic on nfsu ebrake slide "drifting".

Actually, on NFSU, drifting in a FWD is foolish... personally, I use a miata for drifting, a skyline or supra for drag, and an eclipse for everything else. on NFSU2 I use the eclipse for everything (though breaking it loose on the drifts was hard before I unlocked stage2)

And when you pull the ebrake, how is it that your front tires aren't having traction? you pull the ebrake to kick the back end out and line your car up with the apex of the turn and mash the gas pedal to pull the front end of your car through, straightening out the car as it passes the apex... And, while ass dragging, as you call it, the fronts can still be accelerating through the turn AND maintaining (or increasing speed)

Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, and most of them stink. So why doesn't everyone just go out and do their drifting/dragging/and whatever else they want to do, and stop arguing about something that's not going to get resolved?

Also... I was under the impression that when you broke your rears loose and were sliding with the tires spinning, it was called a POWERSLIDE, and a drift was when you entered a turn sideways, not under power, in order to slow your car enough to hit the apex at the right angle and speed to come out of the turn and accelerate out of it to get a shorter path around the turn, for a quicker lap time...

Personally, I think rally is an awesome example of a combination of the two, being on the dirt, entering turns sideways under full power (usually in AWD or FWD cars, ironically) and coming out, sometimes at a higher rate of speed than they entered at. Maybe call it a power drift? *shrugs*

Can't we all just get a bong? (y'all can come over and use mine... just gotta bring your own herbs)

 

[IamCool]

Actually, on NFSU, drifting in a FWD is foolish... personally, I use a miata for drifting, a skyline or supra for drag, and an eclipse for everything else. on NFSU2 I use the eclipse for everything (though breaking it loose on the drifts was hard before I unlocked stage2)

Well I use the corolla, Rx7, and the 240 to drift because the can slide easier than the miata. For drag i use the skyline and rx7(because unique turbo upgrade). The skyline is one of the fastest car up in NFSU2. In part one the s2000 was really fast for drag too. I always had it tied with the skyline.

go play video games you guys. Stop arguing.
As long as your sliding at any angle going into corner and coming out counter steering, it drifting to me...hahaha

 

[allgripnoslip]

Quote: Drifting is getting sideways BEFORE the turn starts and being sideways all through the corner and coming out sideways and then straigtening out


Ever hear of a scandinavian flick?

 

[Thomas91169]

Oh and thomas don't be mad at us because you can't figure out how to drift you FWD.

thats cause FWD ass dragging isnt drifting. go to any drift competition and count how many fwd cars you see then get back to me.

 

[1LE]

I wouldn't mind trying drifting sometime, but I don't have a decent car for it. Looks like it might be fun to do. Watching it gets boring real quick though. I've tried drag racing before, and it's horribly boring to do, but fun to watch. Autox is mildly amusing and cheap, so I do a lot of that. Track days are expensive and pretty fun, but after seeing all the same corners for a couple hours I start to get bored. I can't afford real road racing Rally events are probably the most fun for me, but I've done some seriously expensive damage to my cars before, so I limit the number of those events I run in!

 

[blueberry_dsm]

anyone here try drifting their dsm? i do, the only FF (front engine, fwd) drifter around. just wondering if anyone else has?

shane

 

[Hughes]

Yep tried, ended up pulling a 360', slid about 3 inches from careening into big oak at 50 mph, and then my buddy gets out and says "F*** you, you wanna be." We drove home slow and then I realized I will leave the drifting to the RWD guys.

 

[Defiant]

Same answer as all the other times it's been asked.

 

[RotaryAE86]

saw this on the drifting.com forums and figure id post it for anyone interested.


Step 1 - finding that every single AWD system in the world is completely different from any other system...

I drifted my AWD 91 Legacy Turbo for years, and it's no easy thing (IMO, harder than the RWD kind). My AWD was a viscous coupling type and not necessarily front-biased, there were things that I could do to hold the drift since the rear wheels were pretty much always getting power. However, in a front-biased system like the 4G63T's or CR-V’s, your rears will only get power when the fronts are slipping, as I'd imagine you know by now.

Part of All-wheel-drifting is exactly what the name says: all of the wheels drift. If you watch AWD rally cars you don't usually see the front wheels following the "best line" on the course like RWD cars do (for the most part). A lot of the time the midpoint of an AWD car will be following the best line but the fronts and rears will all be spinning and the steering is toggled back and fourth between almost aimed straight and almost fully counter-steered. This coupled with the insanely high rates of entrance speed helps the car to stay sliding through the turn rather than grinding to a halt on the gravel, but high entry speeds also help keep the car sliding on pavement as well. Most of the time you won’t need to give as much steering input as you feel that you should after the initial “shock” of input to transfer the weight - sometimes only a third to half of a full counter-steer will be plenty to keep you sliding and a full steer will be too much and will whip you back around to the other side.

Although AWD's purpose is to prevent cars from losing traction, you can really use it to your advantage to keep the wheels spinning. If you recall the "traction circle" that you learned in performance-driving kindergarten, you'll remember that the East and West directions represent steering right and left and the North and South directions represent acceleration and braking (respectively). Now, to make a car lose traction, the load on the tires must exceed their ability in any one of those directions or as a combination of two (or more, but that's a bit more advanced).

Let's consider 2 cars with the same specifications, car A having RWD and car B having AWD. When accelerating from a standstill, car A will be sending 100% of the power to the rear wheels only. Granted that car A has the ability to load the tires beyond their capacity, it will break the traction circle and spin the rear wheels. If car B were to send 100% of its power to the driveline, it would momentarily go 100% to the front wheels (in the TSi's case) and break the traction circle causing wheel slippage. The slip sensor will detect this and tell the transmission to take up to 50% from the front and send it to the rear. (NOTE: The initial driving wheels and amount of power distribution will always depend on the AWD system in question) When it does this, the load on the front tires will move to inside the traction circle and the rear wheels' traction circle will look exactly like the front's (ignoring weight and transfer). Simple, right?

Now imagine when a car is going around a turn and power is being applied while there is a constant lateral load on the traction circles of all tires on both cars, during a left turn for example (meaning that the work done on the tires is along the East-West line on the West side). While cornering at half of the capacity of the tires, car A can apply enough power to exceed the traction circle of the rear wheels (the work done by the tires is outside of the traction circle on the upper left side). Meanwhile, the front tires will stay at their half-capacity of lateral load without ever knowing what is happening to the rears. Once a driver counter steers, the direction of lateral load on the front tires is reversed (to the right in a left-turn drift) and they are now working to prevent the car from going off of the track to the left - there's a split second in a feint where the rear is sliding and the fronts are pointed straight just after the body roll has passed neutral. In our left turn, if the driver does a power-over and applies just enough power for the rears to break traction, he can keep the work asked of the tires just beyond the traction circle and maintain control of it, but if he applies too much power the tires will be overwhelmed and the driver will lose control -- this is why higher-powered drift cars need to have the power modulated in order to keep control and keep from spinning while lower power cars can be floored and stay in control.

Ok, the same left turn example with car B and AWD. If the driver applies power in a turn, it may cause the front wheels to exceed the traction circle and transfer power to the rears, which in turn brings both front and rear back within the load limits of the tires, since half of the power is going to the front wheels and half to the back wheels. This would essentially be like driving car A in the same manner but with half the power at the driver's disposal (65hp for a Nissan 240SX, probably not enough to exceed even the stock tires). Even if your TSi has 200hp to the wheels, each set of wheels will see only half of that during a drift, and to get it to slide you either have to be turning harder or going faster to have the work exceed the capabilities of the tires (or use less-sticky tires).

Unless you have tons of power, All-Wheel Drifting techniques require knowledge of vehicle dynamics, your drivetrain, your AWD system, and your traction circle (the best drivers are subliminally imagining all 4 traction circles of all 4 wheels all at the same time all the time). I find that the majority of the time all wheel drifting is spent trying to find ways to "trick" the computer into giving more power to the rear wheels than they can handle. Rocking the steering wheel between neutral and counter-steered one direction is a pretty good way to keep constant load on the outside tires and to find the best steering angle.

You may also want to try doing a moment of very hard braking during the moment of the feint that has the front wheels pointed straight just before turn-in, and then applying maximum power through the apex. Try also varying this so that you don't feint but do sharp braking before the turn-in at a high enough rate of speed that the rear and will swing out, and then try a small steering angle while applying maximum power.

Try getting up some speed (more than you think necessary) and cutting the wheel to one side and then counter steering with favor towards a small steering angle.

You may be able to trick the AWD by pulsing the E-brake but not yanking it when you think the car is close to it’s lateral traction limit when approaching the apex. If you can, try to replicate the effect that rear-only ABS would have but make sure that you fully release before each pull - if your AWD computer is slow enough, it may see the braking moments as representing the “wheels that grip” and send power to those wheels with the power arriving at the rear axle just as you are releasing the brake pressure. Try this technique with the foot brake as well at various times through the turn, both with and without pressing the gas.

I found that most of the operations in drifting an AWD car were pretty full on: full on the gas, full on the brake, etc. In racing they say that you should use smooth motions as to not upset the car's tenuous grip at the limit of traction, but in AWD drifting sometimes you will need to wrestle the car out of traction. Most of the time you will find that unsettling the car will be your best way to break traction while your manipulation of the AWD system will be your best way to maintain control.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: BE SAFE!!! Don’t practice where you may run into something or someone or even where road surfaces are beyond an accepted level of safety. Don’t try and take on more than you feel confident with – drifting may be to-the-limit extreme, but that does not mean being stupid.

Hope this helps and let us know how you make out!

 

[president95]

Yo y0 tokyo drift!!!

 

[RotaryAE86]

dont get this wrong, i didnt post this b/c some movie came out, i did a search on the topic and didnt find much info on these forums, so i knew where to find it and i posted it. MEANT TO BE PURELY INFORMATIVE.

 

[CanadianTSi]

However, in a front-biased system like the 4G63T's or CR-V’s, your rears will only get power when the fronts are slipping, as I'd imagine you know by now.

 

[MrBoxx]

^^ Yeah, that's my reaction, too.

 

[RotaryAE86]

found this previously posted by defiant in 2003

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[blackGSX2g]

That article says exactly what we are saying, AWD DSMs get an initial 50/50 split front to rear; not a FWD bias.

 

[president95]

Doesnt it say right there that you get 50/50 power and that power is transfered only when one axle is losing traction? Therefore its 50/50 based, not fwd based???

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I stopped reading at the FWD bias comment.