Do all internally gated 16g turbos creep?

[alice]

I know this has been beaten to death a million times but after reading just about every post about porting the 16g, I have come to the conclusion that only the EVO 3 Big 16g creeps bad. Now, I know you are all going to slap me in the face for that one but is that true? I read on a few of the posts that, in the majority, the EVO 3 16g doesn't creep as much as the Big 16g. Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[silver bullit]

No it depends on what you have done to combat creep.

There are alot of common remedy's that Fix this searching will be your new best friend.

 

[alice]

I know about all of the remedies. Mr. Peepers wastegate extension article is sick but I don't think I have those welding skills. Porting looks to be my only option with hopes being successful with controlling boost. Running a DP back 3" with no cat is definetly going to give me some creep issues.

And lets say that nothing has been done to fight creep. The EVO 3 16g is exactly like it came from the factory.

 

[silver bullit]

Instead of running internal waste gate go for external.

 

[droppinbottom]

I have a little porting done on my EIII and no creep problems and I run up to 8.5k rpm.

 

[kahl23]

Back when we had the EIII on with a 2.5in TBE we had pretty much 0 creep problems, probably due to the increased backpressure the 2.5 had over a full 3 inch. This setup was still good for 117mph traps, the only thing that kept us out of the 11's was driving ability . Also, droppingbottom, I think we would have hit the 11's if we had been shifting lower than the 8k we were. Is it fun running it to 8k (if your head can take it)? Hell yeah, but it definitely isn't doing you any favors, especially on a 16g sized turbo when you're pretty much out of juice before 7.5k anyway. Just my .02

 

[DSMvroom]

I know this has been beaten to death a million times but after reading just about every post about porting the 16g, I have come to the conclusion that only the EVO 3 Big 16g creeps bad. Now, I know you are all going to slap me in the face for that one but is that true? I read on a few of the posts that, in the majority, the EVO 3 16g doesn't creep as much as the Big 16g. Can anyone shed some light on this?

IIRC, my evoIII 16g on a 3"dp and 2.5" exhaust crept to 21psi by ~4000rpm. This was with nothing to combat creep; no porting, no extrnal gate, nothing. Just an oem MHI evoIII 16g, oem o2 housing, megan racing dp (no cat), and a Greddy SP2 2.5" exhaust.

My solution to fix the creep was to get supporting fuel and tune for 21psi+

 

[FonZ454]

My internally gated big 16g doesn't creep. It just spikes.

Infact, I wish it creeped, I can't hold the boost I want to.

 

[turbo addict]

Quick and dirty.

1.porting
and or
2. external dunp for the internal wastegate
and or
3. cams.
all can kill creep.

 

[DSMvroom]

My internally gated big 16g doesn't creep. It just spikes.

Infact, I wish it creeped, I can't hold the boost I want to.

Your dyno sheet says 20psi. Is that what you are set to? What does it spike to? What does it settle to and at what rpm?

In any case, it is apparent that you are definitely trying to boost at least 20psi and most likely more. The most important questions that needs answering are, if your 16g is set at 12psi for example, will it creep? And if so, to what pressure and at what rpm? I think the answers would be particularly useful for the op.

Quick and dirty.

1.porting
and or
2. external dunp for the internal wastegate
and or
3. cams.
all can kill creep.

Off topic and not the point of the thread, although cams as a solution to creep is something I've not been aware. Looks like I've got some homework to do...

 

[alice]

I have the mods to tune for 21psi and I figure I will probably have to since I have a full 3" exhaust with no cat and a EVO 3 16g. That looks like what I will be doing now the process will be a bit more risky. Just gotta start very conservative and lean up from there.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Off topic and not the point of the thread, although cams as a solution to creep is something I've not been aware. Looks like I've got some homework to do...[/QUOTE]

Upgraded cams add VE up top. When your engine is creepign to higher boost, that's because it is able to supply more air than your engine can take in. Increase VE, and you can flow more air through the motor, more efficiently, and the turbo won't have as much air backed up. Hence more VE = boost falling off up top. So it's a good thing on two fronts. Solve boost creep, and make more power doing it.

 

[droppinbottom]

Back when we had the EIII on with a 2.5in TBE we had pretty much 0 creep problems, probably due to the increased backpressure the 2.5 had over a full 3 inch. This setup was still good for 117mph traps, the only thing that kept us out of the 11's was driving ability . Also, droppingbottom, I think we would have hit the 11's if we had been shifting lower than the 8k we were. Is it fun running it to 8k (if your head can take it)? Hell yeah, but it definitely isn't doing you any favors, especially on a 16g sized turbo when you're pretty much out of juice before 7.5k anyway. Just my .02

I still make power up top due to the cams I have installed which is why I take it up that high. I agree for most 8.5k is too high on a 16g but we did numerous dyno pulls when getting things dialed in and I managed to hold power up top.

 

[Black_Bullet]

My internally gated big 16g doesn't creep. It just spikes.

Infact, I wish it creeped, I can't hold the boost I want to.

+ 1

Im trying to combat boost spike as well. Spiking sucks for tuning your car to the edge
being that your boost will always be so inconsistent with gear/ ambient temp changes.
An external w.g. is in my future.

With my cam upgrade it doesnt hold boost very long. Spiking 24-25psi in 4th and 5th I can see
as low as 19psi by redline which hurts power dropping that low. 23-24 lbs by redline would be ideal to hit the air flow numbers this turbo is capable of.

If your running enough boost, even with cams, I find it absolutely pointless to rev higher than 7k.
The only time i take my rpm higher than my power band ( 7500 rpm shifts) is when i Launch, in attempts to clear the 60 ft before I hit second gear.

I plan on dynoing the car this weekend, so therefore I will see were it makes peak power at on these bc0101s.

 

[turbo addict]

Your dyno sheet says 20psi. Is that what you are set to? What does it spike to? What does it settle to and at what rpm?

In any case, it is apparent that you are definitely trying to boost at least 20psi and most likely more. The most important questions that needs answering are, if your 16g is set at 12psi for example, will it creep? And if so, to what pressure and at what rpm? I think the answers would be particularly useful for the op.



Off topic and not the point of the thread, although cams as a solution to creep is something I've not been aware. Looks like I've got some homework to do...

I didn't think that it was off topic. The op said that it was looking like porting was his only option. I listed porting and two others. I have a external dump and porting on my e316g and I have had all three a small, big and now an evo 16g. with the set up now I have the wastegate shimmed with 3 washers to hold boost higher along with a boost controller.
But with the boost controller all the way down it still holds 14 or 15psi or up to as much as 35psi with it turned up. I think that the external dump for the stock wastegate made a big difference as the atmosphere is much lower pressure than the exhaust pipe is.

 

[FonZ454]

Your dyno sheet says 20psi. Is that what you are set to? What does it spike to? What does it settle to and at what rpm?

In any case, it is apparent that you are definitely trying to boost at least 20psi and most likely more. The most important questions that needs answering are, if your 16g is set at 12psi for example, will it creep? And if so, to what pressure and at what rpm? I think the answers would be particularly useful for the op.

True, I forgot about that. Yes, The boost is set to around 22psi, and will drop to 19-18psi. If I set the boost low low (12psi or so) it will creep. I guess I forget about that part because I'm never running that low of boost I haven't tested that lately, but I think around 5000rpms or so the boost would rise.

 

[alice]

Thanks all for the replies, good info. Like I said, porting does look like my option because of 1. can't afford external gate set-up and 2. that's it. One of my buddies was running a solid 18psi on his EVO3 16g with nearly the exact same set-up as me (full 3" turbo back) and he said he had no issues with creep. No porting, no wg mods, just plain old stock 16g so that is what I am going to try first. Even if it does creep, as long as it's not more than 23-24psi, I will be happy and can tune for it!!

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I dont boost creep in the spring/summer because its warmer. I have logged intake air temps consistently within 10*F of ambient temp once the car is moving at least 35mph. In the winter time I can creep past 15psi. Im a low baller and only run 9psi and 12psi. I have cams and my stock injectors are already at 92.1 IDC. When I get past 5500rpm my boost begins to fall significantly below 10psi. My injectors surprisingly max out when my boost begins to fall off.