Cyclone Intake mani? 35r or 3065? need some input!

[91TSIallday]

Ok im getting to the end of my build and all i have left are the most expensive parts So what i ran into while thinking today was the efficency level of a Cyclone Intake Manifold. My goal is to hit 500+ HP with a rebuilt motor bored .30 over and 8:5:1 compression i believe along with the head being rebuilt new springs retainers etc. and somw 272's. So i was wondering if the cyclone will be able to hold a 35r and suppport it enough? I was thinking that the cyclone would be a good choice for this since it has the butterflies in it, i know Magnus and JMF r the best route but i wanted to see what ppl thought about the cyclone and if anyone has any input on using the cyclone with a 35r. And my next question is what would be a better choice in choosing my turbo, GT 35r or 30r. I know most will say that the bigger the turbo the better but im looking to meet my goal and than some! What would work better with the cyclone mani? i know the option is to sell the cyclone and get a SMIM and a 35r but i want to see what ppl think and if they have done this how did it work for them, Thanks.

 

[Mrdrd_Laser]

The cyclone intake mani will probably just restrict flow with a charger that big. I would go with a smim or just a stock 1g on that setup.

 

[94awdcoupe]

heres my 2.3 8.5-1 35r cyclone graph. This was a 7500rpm shut down, but it holds power well to 8000 and beyond. blows past 8300 rev limit on street if not careful. using a 2.0 moves graph to the right by 500rpm. but I think it still is a good choice.

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[LTUSPE]

The cyclone intake mani will probably just restrict flow with a charger that big. I would go with a smim or just a stock 1g on that setup.

...and let the cyclone bashing begin.

The 1g intake manifold only outflows the cyclone by a few cfm on top end. On a street driven car I'd take the cyclone (if actuated properly) to increase torque on the low end. Actuating it properly is the key. If you're looking to build a 500 hp drag car then go SMIM.

 

[Sp1kE]

A buddy made this for me:

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-Butterflies removed
-Ported like crazy.
-He even cut the far end off the tank to port all the way through.
-Added a second rail

He gaurenteed that it would outflow the stock manifold no problem.

 

[HurleyTSi]

IMHO I would keep the stock intake mani. The 1g head and intake manifold flow very well together, you won't see too much more benefit from a cyclone.

The 1g intake mani can 'handle' a 35R but will you get the most out of the turbo?

As far as 3065 vs 35R...................I'm assuming you're sticking with a Mitsu flanged turbo? And that you're buying from Forced Performance?

Don't buy a 35R from PTE with the stock Mitsu hotside, a Garrett hotside would be the best route but if you have to compromise the FP30 housing is a good choice. Flows the same as a .63 AR T3 turbine housing.

I asked FP the same question (FP3065 vs FP82HTA) and they said the FP82HTA has been dynoed against the 3065 and the results:

-it delivers more torque
-spools just as fast
-has more top end (of course it would)

So I weighed out the cost, an FP82 is about 200 bucks more, why not spend the extra 200 and get a clearly better turbo?

This is the exact route I'm going with my build. You may also want to look into a twin disc clutch.

 

[dsm-onster]

The cyclone truely does do just as well as the 1g intake manifold up top. And the 1g intake manifold out performs a SMIM up to around 6500rpms in almost all cases. Why would one turn down faster spool and better VE in the low to mid range?

Here's my suggestion: 35r and cyclone manifold. The cyclone will help low end power where the 35r sorely lacks vs a 30r. And you will have enough turbine to actually see some simblance of the potential of the 56trim 35r compressor. It always tickles me to see guys run such small turbines for spool, but run such large compressors thinking they can have the spool speed AND flow by just tweeking the turbocharger perameters alone.

You need an outside remedy; like larger displacement, or isolating the exhaust pulses, OR cyclone. The best thing about a 35r and a cyclone is that you can just turn the boost up to make more power. The exhaust flow will be there with the more proper turbine wheel. And the cyclone's long runners will give a significant boost in low end VE. More VE equals more exhaust energy to expend on the turbine wheel. More exhaust energy means faster response. Guys running the cyclone remark on a 400+ rpm sooner spool speed. That's an increase in spool speed in the territory that a twinscroll or a stroker kit or a 30r turbine wheel instead provide.

You can't have your cake and eat it too with just one componenet. But we have SO many components in our enginebay. You can eat your cake in the end if you get it through some other means. Think about the whole picture, not just the turbocharger.

Unless FP sells a bolton 35r turbine. . . I do agree: do not buy a bolton 35r. But I encourage you to get a t3 35r. If you want bolton you will need a turbo that flows more in a bolton housing or has the option of a better bolton housing. Like an hx40 or an s362.

 

[HurleyTSi]

Unless FP sells a bolton 35r turbine. . . I do agree: do not buy a bolton 35r.

They have 'em

FP86HTA = GT3586R w/ HTA wheel

FP82HTA = GT3582R w/ HTA wheel

Not sure if the 86mm wheel will be efficient in the FP30 housing but hey...I don't build turbos for a living

 

[dsm-onster]

The fp30 or any turbine hosuing doesn't determine the efficiency of the 86mm or any other compressor wheel. It determines how much of the compressor wheel's potential can be realized.

As regards the turbine wheel. The turbine wheel ultimately determines flow of the hotside. The turbine housing tweeks flow for spool has a minor effect on backpressure at earlier spool speeds. . . I gather these came in after the bolton hx40s have done so well (there's a couple of guys now running the FP30 turbine housing with a used hx40, just no winning ). Good setup it looks like.

Pick a turbo with wheels balanced to each other to meet your goal: one that flows enough for you to see the full potential of the compressor but no bigger. If not you have more compressor than you need (bigger compressors usually cost more) and you have more lag because of the bigger compressor than a smaller compressor turbo that will flow the same out the tail pipe. Look at the td05h 20g. Not worth it IMHO. The turbine is already a little undersized for the evo3 16g compressor. IT CERTAINLY needs a larger turbine hopusign or wheel to get to the potential of the 20g compressor. In the mean time you have a turbo that will do about as well as an evo3 16g horsepower per psi AND in total flow you can extract from it.

So pick a turbo that is balanced. You have the whole engine bay to indulge your preferences.

 

[pj91gsx]

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-Butterflies removed
-Ported like crazy.
-He even cut the far end off the tank to port all the way through.
-Added a second rail

He gaurenteed that it would outflow the stock manifold no problem.

that manifold piece that bolts to the head is upside down or is it the way that i'm looking at it? So why did you mount injectors and a fuel rail on the manifold. are you going to run 2 fuel rails? i have a cyclone intake manifold but I am just cleaning it up and getting ride of the imperfections. I don't want to do too much to where I don't know what i'm doing. Its a lot of work to port all those holes in the cyclone manifold. I would rather sand and polish it and leave it alone. the 1g manifold ports are very large, I cant see that manifold out flowing a 1g, but I would like to see the comparision. I also plan to keep my butterflies. If and when i want to see more flow ill throw my 1g manifold on.

 

[dsm-onster]

-The 1g and cyclone flow the same up top. And the cyclone flows way more down low. They cyclone has better radiused entries at the runner mouth. Radiused entry alone yields +12% in flow.
-The 1g can't be ported unless you cut it open or extrude hone it. The cyclone can be ported to an extrude hone finish by jsut unbolting the pieces. Hand porting costs FAR less or nothing. Extrude honing costs so much it's not worth it vs. a SMIM upgrade.
-Extrude honing is proven to help flow and trap speed and ET (if you can drive).

Since all the above are true, why wouldn't a well ported cyclone not outflow a stock 1g intake manifold ?

Looks like all he did was port all the imperfections smooth like an extrude hone job. There's really nothing that you "don't know what you are doing". These arn't head ports. They need to be smooth, thats it. And if you can, get as much taper as the casting will allow from the mouth to the head flange.

 

[Sp1kE]

I would love to somehow test my manifold and a stock 1g.
I'm confident it would come out on top... but by how much..???

 

[pj91gsx]

-The 1g can't be ported unless you cut it open or extrude hone it.

.
The 1g manifold can be ported as far as the tool will reach. I would say yes the whole cyclone can be ported and they tool does miss some bits and piece that it cant reach.

Since all the above are true, why wouldn't a well ported cyclone not outflow a stock 1g intake manifold ?

Im thinking in the terms of the size of the ports.

"don't know what you are doing".

The OP said that the ports were ported huge and when you get down to it, its hard to try to keep the ports flowing the same amount of air without the proper tools. Like you said its not the cylinder head so it may not matter but I would rather do my best to make the flow the same. I went to "Cox Racing" to acquire the information I need to port my own cylinder head. The heads on Turbo motors dont need to be flow benched. they use snap gauges to measure the size of the ports. I aim at specific areas and measure the areas that I port. The flow of sucking in air (naturally aspirated) is a different concept compared to forcing the air in the motor.

 

[dsm-onster]

The air is always forced in. The 14psi atmospheric pressure is the same as boost. The turbo is jsut changing the state of the pressure in the intake manifold. The air is ALWAYS being pushed in by pressure, so the concept of not flow benching turbo heads is fairly weak. Honda motors still make more power per psi and displacement because their heads still flow better. So flow benching and getting that better flow helps. You're always talking about air traveling from a higher pressure to a lower pressure. The air particles don't know that the pressure differential is from a turbo increasing pressure or a cylinder decreasing pressure. The delta P is still delta P; and the path, velocity, momentum is all dependent on delta P.

I can't get the grinder in past 3inches on the head side of a 1g manifold. I cant get it in there at all on the plenum side. I don't have the porting tools. I do have a line on a cheap cyclone manifold. Which flows the same as a 1g intake manifold, but affords the ability to fully port it like extrude honing. OP didn't say ported huge. Another member did. But regardless, Those ports just looked smoothed out not much volume difference. Not sure how the flow could vary more if you smooth every thing out to the same surface finish.

I'm not suggesting the OP remove the flappers like the above guy who showed pics of of his cyclone. I AM telling him that a cyclone is proven to flow more down low, and the same up top as a 1g manifold already. And extrude honing, or smoothing the surface of the 1g intake manifold has been proven to yeild better trap speeds and more volume flow. The cyclone inner surface can be smoothed without the extrude hone pricetag. Pretty simple.

The whole point of the cyclone is to have your cake and eat it too. There's no reason to have both sets of runners, if mitsu didn't intend on the flow up top being the same a 1g manifold. The runner may appear narrower for the cyclone but they also have a radiused entry, FAR outweighing the diameter since the 1g manifold has very little radius at the mouth. You have to understand . . .

1) A cyclone flows as much as a 1g up top already.
2) Smoothing the surface is smoothign the surface , cyclone or 1g; wer're not reshapping here.
3) Smoothing the surface is just easier and FAR cheaper to do with a cyclone which happens to provide much better lowerend VE for a bigger turbo.

Why ditch the cyclone for a manifold that flows the same up top, less down low, and costs FAR more to port? This is what you will be doing 'if and when you decide you want to see more flow.' Comeon buddy, dont trade up for a downgrade! You have more in what you have on there now. The cyclone has already been proven to flow the same as a 1g manifold up top. You'll have to research that if you don't want to take my word for it

 

[91TSIallday]

I know alot of ppl wopuld go right for the FP 3065 but what if i brought into the picture of a smaller 30r series turbo for a faster spool? I've heard alot about the cyclone and yes its "in my opinion" a tad better than a 1g. But if im ok with running a 35r with the cyclone than thats one less thing i have to buy but i wanna know if i would need a SMIM with the 35r or would the cyclone still be good enough to reach my goal and still perform on the streets. My car wont be a daily driver but i did want to drive it once in awhile as well as tear it up at the nearby track. I was looking at punishments 354r setup and its not a bad price and i believe its not just a "bolton" but i would get the whole kit, manifold which i think but could be wrong is a t3 flange. What i wanted to do is run the punishment racing 35r setup with the cyclone but i wanna know if the cyclone will be able to "keep up/hold back" the 35r from its full potential. And if run into to many issues with the 35r than i will without a doubt go with FP, 3065 the race mani 44mm WG etc. can never go wrong with FP

 

[dsm-onster]

Both turbos would be 'held back' a little by the 1g intake manifold. Since the cyclone flows about the same, then the same would go for the cyclone.

The advantage a larger turbo provides is that the flow is still higher even with a subpar manifold. You still have better VE, because the turbine flow SO much more and the backpressure is MUCH lower. The lower flowing the longblock, the bigger the turbo you need to reach a tall goal.

It will be FAR easier for you to see 500whp with a cyclone/stock intake manifold with a true 35r with the fp30 turbine housing, than with an fp3065.

 

[pj91gsx]

The air is always forced in. The 14psi atmospheric pressure is the same as boost. The turbo is jsut changing the state of the pressure in the intake manifold. The air is ALWAYS being pushed in by pressure, so the concept of not flow benching turbo heads is fairly weak. Honda motors still make more power per psi and displacement because their heads still flow better. So flow benching and getting that better flow helps. You're always talking about air traveling from a higher pressure to a lower pressure. The air particles don't know that the pressure differential is from a turbo increasing pressure or a cylinder decreasing pressure. The delta P is still delta P; and the path, velocity, momentum is all dependent on delta P.

I can't get the grinder in past 3inches on the head side of a 1g manifold. I cant get it in there at all on the plenum side. I don't have the porting tools. I do have a line on a cheap cyclone manifold. Which flows the same as a 1g intake manifold, but affords the ability to fully port it like extrude honing. OP didn't say ported huge. Another member did. But regardless, Those ports just looked smoothed out not much volume difference. Not sure how the flow could vary more if you smooth every thing out to the same surface finish.

I'm not suggesting the OP remove the flappers like the above guy who showed pics of of his cyclone. I AM telling him that a cyclone is proven to flow more down low, and the same up top as a 1g manifold already. And extrude honing, or smoothing the surface of the 1g intake manifold has been proven to yeild better trap speeds and more volume flow. The cyclone inner surface can be smoothed without the extrude hone pricetag. Pretty simple.

The whole point of the cyclone is to have your cake and eat it too. There's no reason to have both sets of runners, if mitsu didn't intend on the flow up top being the same a 1g manifold. The runner may appear narrower for the cyclone but they also have a radiused entry, FAR outweighing the diameter since the 1g manifold has very little radius at the mouth. You have to understand . . .

1) A cyclone flows as much as a 1g up top already.
2) Smoothing the surface is smoothign the surface , cyclone or 1g; wer're not reshapping here.
3) Smoothing the surface is just easier and FAR cheaper to do with a cyclone which happens to provide much better lowerend VE for a bigger turbo.

Why ditch the cyclone for a manifold that flows the same up top, less down low, and costs FAR more to port? This is what you will be doing 'if and when you decide you want to see more flow.' Comeon buddy, dont trade up for a downgrade! You have more in what you have on there now. The cyclone has already been proven to flow the same as a 1g manifold up top. You'll have to research that if you don't want to take my word for it

I wasnt planning on trading up or selling the cyclone manifold. i did sand down all of the ports about 2 years ago, but i havent have my dsm running in years. I dont want to take out the butterflies though. I want to use them with my dsmlink in the nitrious settings.

 

[dsm-onster]

Excellent move! don't destroy what the manifold is good for. 1g manifold flow up top and BETTER than 2g manifold flow down low. . .

 

[91TSIallday]

awesome! so a true 35r and the cyclone should be close to my goal. The only thing else that i can think of is sell the cyclone and go with a JMF SMIM, but in doing so what TB would be a good choice? I heard the Q whatever is a little much for it

 

[pj91gsx]

awesome! so a true 35r and the cyclone should be close to my goal. The only thing else that i can think of is sell the cyclone and go with a JMF SMIM, but in doing so what TB would be a good choice? I heard the Q whatever is a little much for it

some guy i know is using a 5.0 mustang TB on a SMIM that he made. All this inspiration got me back to cleaning up my intake manifolds. my cyclone is almost done, i just have to do one piece of it an its the piece that has the butterflies. I cleaned out a 1g manifold earlier today just because i wanted to clean one out.

 

[91TSIallday]

sweet ya a guy around here used a mustang TB and i was like WHAT!??? but idk i've heard that only a couple times so i dont know how it works or which one. Ya i wanted to learn a little more about the Cyclone because i havent heard anything bad about it but i wanted to know if it would be good enough to reach 500+HP with a true 35r like from punishment.