clutch wont disengage

[jgriffith86]

I have a 93 talon and i bought a jdm tranny with my motor and i cannot get the clutch to disengage. I bought a new clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder, welded the clutch pedal, have a new 2600 clutch and act flywheel, shimmed the pivot ball, bought a new clutch extension rod, stainless steel clutch line and have blead the crap out of it and nothing works. Every time i push the clutch in and try to put it in gear it just grinds and wont even start to go into gear. Please dont tell me to search because thats all i have been doing i just want to find out whats wrong before i spend any more money. Please help.

Thanks.

 

[jgriffith86]

I was thinking of extending that rod but did not really want to cut corners. What did you use to do it. And does any one know if it will hurt anything?

 

[g63tawd]

It's not really cutting a corner if you have done everything else it's just another option. I forgot what size the actual rod is but if you get a piece of threaded rod the clevis screws off and use a coupler (it's a long nut) add a few inches to the coupler nut and screw the clevis back onto the threaded rod and you can adjust from there. Also when you go to bleed it adjust it so the pedal is almost on the floor. Then bleed it and adjust it all the way back out and that will also give you more throw. So far I haven't had any problems with this setup and it's been on over a year.

 

[jgriffith86]

can anyone with a act clutch measure to see how far the slave cyl travels to disengage the clutch?.

 

[Morphius]

The new extension rod, is it longer then the factory rod? I have read that the after market clutches sometimes require a longer rod to fully disengage the clutch. I have also read about shimming the slave cylinder to give it more action.

The longer slave rod, is one of the biggest scams out there. You might as well put a tornado intake on!!. It will NOT provide more disengagement unless you have your clutch grossly misadjusted. By this, I mean, you've adjusted the master cylinder input rod out enough to preload the system and put it into crossover. At that point the compensation valve will be closed, defining a set volume in the hydraulic system. Thus, when one installs a longer pushrod, the piston in the slave CAN't be pushed in, causing the clutch fork to be offset, resulting in a slightly engaged TOB and pressure plate. This can then lead to early TOB failure.

My suggestion to the origional poster is this:

1. Readjust the clutch pedal per the service manual procedure.
2. Bleed the hydraulics carefully. (Take your time to ensure you get all the air out)

Looking at what you have installed, I'd suggest installing a new pivot ball and release fork. Likely they have some serious wear and mileage on them.

I have one other suggestion, but I don't recommend it until you've done that above and installed a new clutch line, fork, pivot ball, and verified the step height on the flywheel. Shimming the pivot ball can also help. Try all that, then I'll make a 'last' suggestion.

 

[PaulN]

The longer slave rod, is one of the biggest scams out there. You might as well put a tornado intake on!!. It will NOT provide more disengagement unless you have your clutch grossly misadjusted. By this, I mean, you've adjusted the master cylinder input rod out enough to preload the system and put it into crossover. At that point the compensation valve will be closed, defining a set volume in the hydraulic system. Thus, when one installs a longer pushrod, the piston in the slave CAN't be pushed in, causing the clutch fork to be offset, resulting in a slightly engaged TOB and pressure plate. This can then lead to early TOB failure.

My suggestion to the origional poster is this:

1. Readjust the clutch pedal per the service manual procedure.
2. Bleed the hydraulics carefully. (Take your time to ensure you get all the air out)

Looking at what you have installed, I'd suggest installing a new pivot ball and release fork. Likely they have some serious wear and mileage on them.

I have one other suggestion, but I don't recommend it until you've done that above and installed a new clutch line, fork, pivot ball, and verified the step height on the flywheel. Shimming the pivot ball can also help. Try all that, then I'll make a 'last' suggestion.

Woah chief. Theres a big difference between quoting a known solution for some people and pushing a scam. I don't know what you were implying, but I simply asked if the rod that was purchased was the extended rod and that I had read that some people have had success with one. I was simply offering the guy another point of research to solve his problem.

It's easy to preach the manual when you're dealing with stock, oem spec items, but sometimes that doesn't apply when you're talking about aftermarket items. Something tells me these guys have done everything in the manual and probably threw a few wrenches at it as well.

Finally, how is shimming the fork pivot ball any different than using an extended slave rod? They both accomplish the same thing. Both increase the amount of force the fork places on the throwout bearing by allowing it to press further into the pressure plate. One by moving the fork pivot point closer to the pressure plate while one increases the range of the fork. In either case you end up with potential for the TOB to ride the pressure plate.

Same difference.

 

[Morphius]

Woah chief. Theres a big difference between quoting a known solution for some people and pushing a scam. I don't know what you were implying, but I simply asked if the rod that was purchased was the extended rod and that I had read that some people have had success with one. I was simply offering the guy another point of research to solve his problem.

Not saying you were pushing the scam, but one of many who have been caught up in it. I realize it published in many areas and pushed by even the 'sacred' Taboo Speed Shop. However, I'm telling you it doesn't do anything, if the clutch is adjusted properly. Misadjustment of the master cylinder can make it appear as though it works. Beleive me, I know how this works. I designed hydraulics for DCX.

It's easy to preach the manual when you're dealing with stock, oem spec items, but sometimes that doesn't apply when you're talking about aftermarket items. Something tells me these guys have done everything in the manual and probably threw a few wrenches at it as well.

I realize this, but reread his posts. He hasn't tried everything yet. Thus, my suggestions.

Finally, how is shimming the fork pivot ball any different than using an extended slave rod? They both accomplish the same thing. Both increase the amount of force the fork places on the throwout bearing by allowing it to press further into the pressure plate. One by moving the fork pivot point closer to the pressure plate while one increases the range of the fork. In either case you end up with potential for the TOB to ride the pressure plate.

Same difference.

There is a difference. One, again the longer pushrod does nothing. The hydraulic system can only move so much fluid, based on ratios. (ie master/slave cylinder bores) The only way to increase release lever travel is by changing the ratio. The ratios of the system (pedal/hydraulics/clutch/release lever) have defined the size of the slave body or bore length . The system will come to equillibrium with the friction of the system which includes the quill (what the TOB rides on), TOB, release bearing, pivot ball, and pressure plate. Because pressure is released (no pedal pressure) the TOB will ride just off the pressure plate. This all equates to a slave rod piston (for examples sake) that is setting in the middle of the slave cylinder (ie half way pushed in) Installing a longer slave rod mearly pushed the piston deeper in the slave cylinder. It will again find equillibrium and settle with the TOB just off the pressure plate.

Shimming the pivot, you are changing the geometry of the system and effectively (although very very small) changing the ratio.

 

[PaulN]

Hmm. Yes you're changing the ratio but, unless I am missing something here, you are still doing the same thing in the end regardless of whether you shim the pivot ball or simply add a longer slave rod..

Allowing the fork/tob to initate more pressure to the pressure plate.

If you add shims, aren't you moving the fork closer on it's pivot to the pressure plate in turn decreasing the angle of the fork putting it and the TOB closer to the throwout bearing when the clutch is released??

If you add an extended slave rod, aren't you decreasing the angle of the fork putting it and the TOB closer to the throwout bearing when the clutch is released?


Maybe I am just over thinking the whole thing.

 

[Morphius]

Hmm. Yes you're changing the ratio but, unless I am missing something here, you are still doing the same thing in the end regardless of whether you shim the pivot ball or simply add a longer slave rod..

Allowing the fork/tob to initate more pressure to the pressure plate.

If you add shims, aren't you moving the fork closer on it's pivot to the pressure plate in turn decreasing the angle of the fork putting it and the TOB closer to the throwout bearing when the clutch is released??

If you add an extended slave rod, aren't you decreasing the angle of the fork putting it and the TOB closer to the throwout bearing when the clutch is released?

Maybe I am just over thinking the whole thing.

No. The system will find equillibrium, with the piston in the slave cylinder further in the bore. It is no more biased than it was before. Unless you've now put a long enough pushrod in that bottoms the piston in the bore. This all together is bad because as your clutch wears the piston will move deeper in the bore. In that case, it can't go deeper, leaving one unknowingly slipping the clutch over time.

The simple fact that hydraulics are self-adjusting is why they are preferred now days. No maintence.

 

[jgriffith86]

The clutch pedal is adjusted the way the service manual says. I have blead the hydraulics more thatn enough. I forgot to say that when i shimmed the pivot ball that i also got a new pivot ball and fork and installed them both. Last night i pulled the transmission and checked the step hight on the flywheel it was ok. I am all out of ideas that i can think of and have tried everything that people have told me to do. The only thing that i can think of doing is making the adjustmet at the master cyl longer but i dont really want to do it because i think that is just a temp fix.

 

[Morphius]

The clutch pedal is adjusted the way the service manual says. I have blead the hydraulics more thatn enough. I forgot to say that when i shimmed the pivot ball that i also got a new pivot ball and fork and installed them both. Last night i pulled the transmission and checked the step hight on the flywheel it was ok. I am all out of ideas that i can think of and have tried everything that people have told me to do. The only thing that i can think of doing is making the adjustmet at the master cyl longer but i dont really want to do it because i think that is just a temp fix.

Adjustment of the master cylinder pushrod is there to ensure that the pedal ends up in the designed postion, which will utilize the maximum amount of swing of the pedal. The result is the maximum amount of fluid pushed in the hydraulic system upon acuation. I don't think many people understand that.

I'd suggest getting an 3000gt AWD 5pd slave and installing it. It's nearly identical, but has a smaller bore, which will increase release lever travel. Pedal force will also increase some amount, but may not be noticable.

 

[jgriffith86]

I will pick a 3000gt slave up and try that thanks for the help.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

If you have replaced and did every precedure, I believe you have a defective clutch assembly. Have you checked your freeplay? Excessive freeplay can cause disengagement problems. Re-check this again..once you do it...check it again, and again .

 

[Dream On]

I did everything, and welded my pedal assembly. I'm going to try and put it all back together, then adjust the rod for the master really close to the floor, then bleed it, and push the piston on the slave as well when bleeding. Hopefully that'll do it, if now then I'll probably just extend the master rod.

 

[Morphius]

Hopefully that'll do it, if now then I'll probably just extend the master rod.

Extending the master cylinder rod will do nothing, but put the hydraulics into cutoff. Then the hydraulics can't self adjust for wear. If you can't push the slave cylinder rod in, then you've hit that point.

 

[Dream On]

Then do you have any other suggestions? The only thing I can think of is rebleeding it and adjusting the pedal down at the floor while doing so. Any other special tricks I should do while bleeding? My pedal has never felt really that hard (Spec Stage 3), but I added a SS clutch line, so I wasn't sure how hard it would be. Also when bleeding it normally by opening the bleeder then pushing the pedal down, then closing it, then pulling the pedal up, there was not air coming out of the bleeder. Suggestions? (Sorry I won't let the thread die..but I want my car running..)

 

[Morphius]

Then do you have any other suggestions? The only thing I can think of is rebleeding it and adjusting the pedal down at the floor while doing so. Any other special tricks I should do while bleeding? My pedal has never felt really that hard (Spec Stage 3), but I added a SS clutch line, so I wasn't sure how hard it would be. Also when bleeding it normally by opening the bleeder then pushing the pedal down, then closing it, then pulling the pedal up, there was not air coming out of the bleeder. Suggestions? (Sorry I won't let the thread die..but I want my car running..)

See post 35.

 

[g63tawd]

Since I have extend the clutch rod I haven't seen any ill effects at all. There is no cutoff at all. And after I did that it fixed my clutch problem. I had done everything else replaced both cylinders, Welded pedal assembly, extended slave rod, Pivot ball shim and countless hours of adjustments and bleeding. I the modified the master rod and since then have not had one problem clutch doesn't drag nothing so I was just offering my personal experience and it worked for me so since he exhausted his options like me I offered another.

 

[Cool Mr Steve]

Also when bleeding it normally by opening the bleeder then pushing the pedal down, then closing it, then pulling the pedal up, there was not air coming out of the bleeder. Suggestions? (Sorry I won't let the thread die..but I want my car running..)

Maybe you didn't type that out correctly, but the way you said you were bleeding your clutch doesn't seem to be correct. Instead of opening the bleeder, pushing the pedal down, then closing it you should be pushing the pedal down and then opening the bleeder, then closing it quickly. The way you are saying would allow air into the system. If you are in fact doing it the way you just stated, go back and do it this way. Be sure to follow the directions exactly.

 

[Morphius]

Since I have extend the clutch rod I haven't seen any ill effects at all.

Yet.

There is no cutoff at all.

Sorry, but there is. Otherwise, the system wouldn't work.

And after I did that it fixed my clutch problem. I had done everything else replaced both cylinders, Welded pedal assembly, extended slave rod, Pivot ball shim and countless hours of adjustments and bleeding.

Merely, because you are in cut-off. Here's another interesting fact. Does anyone know why there is a spring attached to the pedal that connects to the underside dash? To overcome pedal weight to keep the hydraulics out of cut-off. The mere weight of the pedal is enough to induce this.

I the modified the master rod and since then have not had one problem clutch doesn't drag nothing so I was just offering my personal experience and it worked for me so since he exhausted his options like me I offered another.

Longer master cylinder rod will not give you any more slave output. If you changed the ratios (hydraulics or different mount point on the clutch pedal for the master cylinder input rod), then it'll increase slave output. Climb under you car and take your hand and push on the release lever towards the slave. Does it move? If not, you are in cut-off.

 

[jgriffith86]

clutch still wont disengage with the 3000gt slave i am lost i blead the crap out of it and it still wont let go. the pedal still has some play at the top even with the master adjusted all the way out. I dont know what to do im getting tired of spending all this money and nothing is working
Please help

 

[Morphius]

clutch still wont disengage with the 3000gt slave i am lost i blead the crap out of it and it still wont let go. the pedal still has some play at the top even with the master adjusted all the way out. I dont know what to do im getting tired of spending all this money and nothing is working
Please help

That's surprising. How much play do you have at the top? Should be able to apply the clutch pedal about 1/2" and then feel resistance. Is this the case?

 

[jgriffith86]

It feels like the first halg of the pedal is doing nothing

 

[Morphius]

When you welded the pedal, did you have the lever set in the correct location? As you know the hole in the lever wears, which when you get set to weld it, can allow you to bias the lever one direction or the other(say at a 7 o'clock postion instead of 5 o'clock). I've mistakingly done this myself. In that case, my car had marginal release, no matter what I did.

Also, climb under the car and press on the release lever. Can you push the slave rod into the slave cylinder any amount? If not, you've got your master cylinder misadjusted. This also can mean that at any time, you could induce air into the system. With the comp port blocked, it'll have a tendancy to pull a vacuum, drawing air in past the slave seal. I would try bleeding it, leaving the bleed hose on the slave. Don't drain the hose or take it off so you can see solid fluid in it still. Then actuate the clutch a couple times. Go back and rebleed the slave. Do you see air now being expelled again?

 

[jgriffith86]

I dont think that i welded it in the wrong place. When i was bleeding it i used a clear tube so the i could see the air and i blead it until i did not see any more. i think that i am going to try and back the master off and see what happens because the i cannot push the slave rod into the slave cylinder. how would i know if its misadjusted?

 

[Morphius]

I dont think that i welded it in the wrong place. When i was bleeding it i used a clear tube so the i could see the air and i blead it until i did not see any more. i think that i am going to try and back the master off and see what happens because the i cannot push the slave rod into the slave cylinder. how would i know if its misadjusted?

The clear tubing is good. You've got the right idea. Like I stated above, bleed it, leaving the hose in place. Actuate the clutch a few times. Rebleed to see if you have air in it again.

You will know if it's misadjusted for one, if you can't push the slave rod in. Second would be that within the first 1/2 of stroke of the clutch pedal you don't have some resistance.

How many miles on you car? Was it modded prior to you buying it, in relation to the clutch? If it's high miles and it's had a 2600 or equivlent in it for an extensive period, it's possible the cross shaft for the pedal assembly flexes too much. As it is, they are marginal for a 2600.