Changed cables, battery, and starter. What the hell!! Doesn't start, getting pissed

[sknydave]

I have a 1G, it has been driving perfect for months, then all of a sudden I get the car and it doesn't start, nothing, dead, just clicks a little. So, I changed the battery, nothing, changed the terminals, nothing, took the starter to Autozone to get checked, it was bad. Put the new starter in, nothing. Does anyone have any idea as to what the hell is going on!!

 

[tsunari]

Does anyone know how to test which terminal is "M" and wich is "B"?

I honestly have not seen a starter yet where the Field Coil Wire can easily hook up to the B-terminal. There usually is JUST enough length for it to hook on to the M-terminal- that's it.

You can always head over to Bosch and check out some of their troubleshooting guides

http://www.boschusa.com/AutoParts/FAQs/AlternatorsStarters/

 

[evi1clipse]

that picture is the correct way to place your starter field coil goes on terminal M, not B, reason why theres not enough slack is to not get confused like I did, I pulled mines and didn't look before unscrewing things, if you hook everything up to terminal B (field coil and pos cable), soon as you hook back your battery more then likely it'll just engage your starter and your gonna think you have a bad one, field coil goes to terminal M, positive goes to terminal B and ground hooks to starter bolt.

 

[firebirdvert305]

I had this same problem on my 1g, turned out the ECU caps leaked...check ## ecu...its probley fried, u have the same exact symtoms i had, When mine went i knew exacly what it was, i didnt even check the starter or anything just my lazyness of pulling the ecu to check the caps in the first place....Pull it and let us know how it looks.

 

[wret]

Actually on my starter the field coil wire was long enough to reach either pole but I think it's safe to say that it should connect to the closer pole.

 

[BigKat773]

i have the same problem as these guys are, i lost all power, none at all. pulled the starter to found out that both cables were just laying there loose between the nuts, so my stater if fried. i'm gonna put in i new one today, plus i think my ignition switch is broke. when i went to turn over the key it clicked once then went really loose. no pressure after acc, just empty space. let me know what you think, i'm pretty much know it's broke. so let me know where i can get one. i'm gonna check my stater relay, and ecu if all else fails. i hope we can all help each other out on this issue. i got a friend who thinks my fusible links r bad some where, but from all u guys info i seem to be pretty close in the area of getting it fixed.

 

[howdeyjake]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1869777&posted=1#post1869777
I'm with you guys too. IT SUCKS! I'm next going to try and ground the cable out to the starter bolt, my ground is just hanging there but I REALLY doubt it will make a difference. I don't see my car ever running again.....

 

[howdeyjake]

Any clue of what happened to the threadstarters starter?

 

[2GeNTSi]

Raising the dead.

Alright so I've been dealing this for the longest time so prepare yourself for a short essay here.

I purchased my 2G in 2003 with a few problems but I'm going to focus on the relevant problem here. I noticed a few months after owning the car that immediately after the car would fire-up, there would be a strange almost grinding noise coming from somewhere. I did some research on here and found out the the starter was bad, replaced it and everything worked great (Pepboys starter, I think Prostart?). Anyways, it worked flawlessly for about a year or so then one day after driving to Sacramento--which is about two hours away--the car wouldn't start. At the time I had no idea what the problem was but I just let it sit for a while and tried it again with it starting this time. It did this about two or three times over the next year and a half or so that I had that starter. THEN in 2005 it got worse.

I was now living in San Jose for school and this is where the problem started (and has yet to fully go away). I was living in these dorms/apartments so I didn't really have anywhere to work on my car (and I absolutely hate going to mechanics), so I pretty much just dealt with sitting at my car turning the key to the START position over and over until it eventually would start. I did this for about two years (I know it sucks) but I noticed some days it would go the whole day starting on the first try, and also during Winter it seemed to happen less as opposed to the heat of Summer. In 2006, I moved to another apartment complex where I was able to KIND OF work on my car. I started doing some research when I got really bored and found out that maybe my problem lied in the starter again or perhaps the battery. I brought them out to Pepboys and both were testing fine. Great. So then back to DSMTuners, annnnd started getting into the ignition switch and starter relay realm of this whole ordeal. I didn't understand the starting system all that much so I figured I would give it a try and ended up wasting money on the ignition switch and starter relay. All these things just coincidentally were installed when the starter decided to be nice and start perfectly for a few days but didn't fix the problem. Also not too long ago when I came back home for a few days, I decided to junk all my battery cables for all new ones and cleaned up all the terminals, grounds, and contact points. I think this helped maybe a little but still the problem persists.

Fast forward to just this past week (which was supposed to be my spring break that I took my work PTO on too!!!) I attempted to fix my heater core but lost my motivation and decided to just clean out my interior and replace my starter for the hell of it since it had a lifetime warranty. Well, I get the remanufactured one back in try to fire it up annnnd "click," turn it to start a few more times to just to get a "click" everytime from the solenoid popping the gear out but not actually cranking. After a bit of research, I discovered that I actually don't have to worry about tearing up my interior because in order for the solenoid to pop the gear out, the ignition switch has to be sending power through the starter relay to the "s" terminal on the solenoid. The only issue is that it doesn't want to crank now (but that's actually the same issue I've been having for the last few years) but usually it would eventually crank after a few tries. This starter just refused to start after countless attempts to turn the key to the START position. I did some other research just on google and discovered that for a "no-crank" starting problem where the solenoid simply clicks and doesn't attempt to crank is the result of a faulty solenoid. Sweet. So I got a supposedly "working" starter and it doesn't even work on the first try (mind you this is probably the 6th starter in my car, I lost count). I go back to Pepboys and have them test it and the tester just happens to be broken, so one of the guys just whips out some jumper cables and does it manually hooked up to a battery. It works fine, weird. With no options left and needing to get this done asap I opted to just buy another starter regardless of what the results of the test were. I get back throw it in and it starts! Great, but I noticed it cranks slow now. I'm too tired today and I feel like shooting up some people in COD4 haha so tomorrow I'm gonna probably end up throwing down another $100+ for a Optima Red-Top.

So all in all my "no-crank" issue has been narrowed down to one or two things at this point (I think). Bad or incorrect ground, or my starter really was DOA and just had a few more starts in it. Like I said my starter solenoid would simply click all the time so that immediately cancels out the ignition switch, starter relay, and clutch safety switch. That really only leaves the battery cables and the grounds (the battery if low would still deliver some power to crank even if it was a slow crank I believe). All the cables are 4ga and new, contact points were wire brushed and everything. Maybe there is a ground that I'm missing? I have the negative terminal with one 4ga going to the firewall next to it, and the other ground at the bellhousing with one of the starter mounting bolts. I really do want to fix this problem eventually, it's been haunting my DSM forever!!!

*EDIT*
To compress this down for those who don't want to read this, I have done the following already to address this "no-crank" issue:

New Ignition Switch
New Starter Relay
New Starter (replaced many times, just did it yesterday as well)
New 4ga Battery Cables
Contact Points and Grounds Wire-Brushed (one ground from negative terminal to firewall, other under one of the starter mounting bolts)

After I replaced the starter I picked up from Kragen with a Prostart one from Pepboys, the car started everytime (so far) but it is cranking slower. I tested the battery and it is on the weak side so I'm going to pick up a new battery. I can't afford a Optima so I'm going to just get a Duralast from Autozone.

Oh yeah and here is a diagram (general) of the starting system. For 2G owners I think you can just overlook the fuse.

 

[tsunari]

Nice description, I'll throw in a couple of points from my experiences . . .

I did not start having this problem until I installed an aftermarket alarm with remote start, which just happened to get installed at the same time I dropped a 6-bolt in. But that is besides the point, I'm just giving background . . . For simplicity's sake, I have the clutch position switch disconnected (do not need to press the clutch for starting).

My symptoms:

*Note: throughout this post, when I use the word 'click', that denotes that the starter bendix gear is actually popping out of the starter, but the teeth are not meshing with the ring gear on the flywheel (I have physically witnessed this).

-Using remote start
-> Will somewhat randomly start as it should. If it just goes 'click', I can actually get in the car and turn it over with the key.
-> If the remote start fails to start 3 successive times, the unit will give up. Sometimes an additional attempt or two will be successful in a remote start.

-Using key
-> Seems to happen more in warm/hot weather, but when it wont start with the key, sometimes a remote start will work. However, if neither work, placing the car in gear and rolling it a ways (to move the flywheel) and then attempting to re-start usually works every time.
-> Starting with the key has gotten so bad, that I can sit there and cycle ON-START-ON-START . . . several times before it will actually turn over. Remote starting seems to have degraded to the point that it doesn't work reliably enough either.

So I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell, here's what I've done to try and fix it:

- Several new starters
-> Seemed to help for a little while, but never really solved anything

- New battery cables from mitsu
-> No change

- New starter relay
-> No change

- New Optima battery
-> No change

- Replaced remote start IGN relay
-> Helped for a while, but didn't solve it completely

- Rewired the wires going from remote start to IGN switch with larger gauge and
better end-terminals
-> Helped out tremendously, but problem still exists

- Replaced IGN switch
-> Solved issue with not being able to start with the key.
-> Have been able to start with them 100% so far (past several months) without incident.
Tore apart the old IGN switch to find the (ST)art contact had worn down quite a bit over the past 10+ years. However, the remote start issue still remains.

 

[2GeNTSi]

I'm surprised you still get the bendix gear to pop out when you put the key in the START position. To my understanding when this is done, a 12v signal is sent from the ignition switch to the "S" terminal (going through the clutch safety switch and the starter relay along the way). However, if your ignition switch isn't functioning correctly then the "S" terminal shouldn't be receiving power at the other end.

**EDIT**
Still and on going problem, I'm going to go home today to work on my car. I'm first going to switch out the + battery cable for a 2ga instead of a 4ga. Before it started cranking slowly, I remember I replaced this, so perhaps the cable is undersized for the load. Also I might take a look under the dash to lookout for any loose connections.

 

[tsunari]

Alright . . . I am back. Last week my car finally decided it was time for me to track this issue down and fix it once and for all. In short, there is a problem with the factory wiring harness somewhere between the Ignition cylinder and the starter relay (I will be working to pin-point it this evening) . . . stay tuned.

 

[Ravenous]

Staying tuned... patiently

 

[tsunari]

So this might not be a permanent solution for my situation, but it turns out one of the harnesses I made to tap power off of the IGN cylinder and a harness for the remote start circuit was creating quite a significant voltage drop.

For right now, I've disconnected the remote start circuit and will later be re-wiring the other power harness I made . . . however the voltage drop between the ignition cylinder and the starter relay still seemed a bit high to me, so will look into that more.

I would suggest trying to trace your problem from the starter back to the ignition cylinder by doing a voltage drop test at different points along that circuit.