Can't get rid of knock Need more idea's

[DJ23GSX]

I am having some knock issues at 19psi and 93 octane that i can't tune out. I am pushing my idc's close to 95% on the 560's @ 42psi bfp and still can't get rid of it. I can't seem to get knock under 12-15 counts no matter how much fuel i add or take away. My mods are in my profile. I would love to turn the boost down but thanks to the great porting from sbr it creeps to 19psi by 5k.

So far i have fixed or tried these things

1. New Knock sensor retourqued a few times with no change in knock
2. New fuel filter
3. Fixed all boost leaks (including the AFPR)
4. Raised my base fp up to 45psi
5. Different 2g mas
6. New plugs
7. Rewired the 255
8. New caps in ecu
9. Air filter box with hose plumbed with ambient air
10. Took foglight out and trimmed the i/c duct to fit the mkiv i/c better
11. Checked the fuel pump seal and cleaned the pump bag filter


I get pk when the car is cold and driving normal but it goes away after the car is warmed up. I don't think its pk i am seeing under boost though as it does go up and down if i add or take fuel away. I just can't tune it for 0 knock. It doesn't seem like i should have to add this much fuel. The next thing i would like to try is bringing my base timing down a bit. I also have a set 650's but i don't think i should need that much fuel for this set up from what i've been reading in other threads with similar mods.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I run 850cc injectors like stock...

www.dsmchips.com

with an eprom ecu of course...

What do you run for an i/c and boost? Whats your knock look like?

 

[nightspeed87]

What do you run for an i/c and boost? Whats your knock look like?

Well im only running a stock side mount with an evo3 at 16psi max, normally its
set at like 12 and the chip also allows me to do evo8mass air sensor compensation so yea.. But one of my friends runs the same chip/injector set up with the same turbo and i think the most hes seen is 21lbs.
Its a pretty simple and reliable set up, I just recommend to have a logger and a wideband with the chip, or with any set up at that, and you wont need s-gayfc either unless you want to use it to fine tune since you already have it.

 

[SBR Joe]

ya, it was a track slut my also my dd at the time. i would do many back to back pulls and no problems, but it was a freak..no matter what idid to it, it never ran bad, my buddy had the same setup on his AWD 5 spd too, no problems at liek 25 psi. If i were you, id do the 650's, run BPR8ES plugs, get a wideband and tune for AFR's and say piss on knock as long as its running good and not doing over 15 counts.


Joe
SBR

My intake temps at the mas are usually within 5 degrees of ambient temps.

You were running 650's compared to my 560's but other than that the mods are similar. That was a track car right? Did you ever make back to back pulls at 24psi with that setup? I've done some searching and have read a few threads where people claimed to heatsoak the mkiv and have read others that run 20psi daily with no issues.

I have 650's sitting in my basement but i am not sure they would help. I am sure they would probly dump enough fuel to calm the knock down but i am not sure what there going to do to my timing. With 0-5 counts of knock on the 560's i get 19-20* of timing.

All i have is my heatshield over the exhaust manifold i broke the o2 shield and i have no heatwrap on anything in the engine bay.

Say i go with meth injection... Should i stick with the 560's or drop in the 650's? Mind you i only have a safc for tuning. No eprom.

Thanks for the help

 

[oldman]

ya, it was a track slut my also my dd at the time. i would do many back to back pulls and no problems, but it was a freak..no matter what idid to it, it never ran bad, my buddy had the same setup on his AWD 5 spd too, no problems at liek 25 psi. If i were you, id do the 650's, run BPR8ES plugs, get a wideband and tune for AFR's and say piss on knock as long as its running good and not doing over 15 counts.

Joe, there is absolutely no need for OP to go to BPR8ES unless he's running 25+psi, as for living with 15 counts of knock, I hope you're only kidding!

 

[DJ23GSX]

I like to stay under 7 counts of knock if possible. Even at 7-9 counts of knock my timing is still around 17*

I did a few logs this morning and noticed something kind of odd.

First off it was 46* outside this morning and i was creeping to 21psi. I made my first pull (2nd gear) and saw 9 counts of knock and my idc's were 110%. I made a second 2nd gear pull after adding 1-2% fuel at 6k and 7k and for some reason my idc's dropped down to 100% and the knock went up to 12. I made 2 more pulls (2nd gear) both adding and taking fuel away and knock kept getting higher.


I am pretty convinced its heatsoak but whats going on with my idc's? What would cause them to drop after adding fuel? I didn't log intake temps but if the temps at the mas were that much cooler on the second run could it cause that big a difference on my idc's?

 

[SBR Joe]

Joe, there is absolutely no need for OP to go to BPR8ES unless he's running 25+psi, as for living with 15 counts of knock, I hope you're only kidding!

You are JOKE!!!!! I run 8's in my car now at 20 psi!!! It helps especially in heat soak or hot weather situations......My FWD with 25psi would knock 10-16 counts in all high gears and still made 389whp with 18 degrees of timing at the top of 4th. Im getting sick of you coming on here being all sissy about tuning and trying to say whats right and whats not. If it couldnnt or SHOULDNT be done i would never suggest it, just like that injector size with AFC thread. Like i would wanna soil our name any more, please. Any thing that i have said to do i have personally done.

Joe

 

[oldman]

You are JOKE!!!!! I run 8's in my car now at 20 psi!!!......

Then I would suggest that you use 7's, all you're doing is fouling out the 8's quicker with no benefits.

My FWD with 25psi would knock 10-16 counts in all high gears and still made 389whp with 18 degrees of timing at the top of 4th.

Timing isn't the only thing you need to worry about unless you're strictly performance minded, you work for a shop/dyno and you have more access then most, telling people on a public forum, without knowing details specs of the specific car, that 15 counts of knock is OK sounds very risky to me. As for your FWD, if it's a DD, I would suggest lowering that 25psi down until knock is lowered.

If it couldnnt or SHOULDNT be done i would never suggest it, just like that injector size with AFC thread. Like i would wanna soil our name any more, please.

Again, telling an average joe to go ahead and run 850s with piggyback alone isn't exactly ideal.

Any thing that i have said to do i have personally done. YOU have to be kidding me, and watcha gonan do, give me another warning??.

No need to get defensive, I have no problems with how you decide to run your personal car, I'm simply pointing out that just because something can be done deosn't automatically make it a good idea, safty should always be the first priority, performance comes second.

 

[SBR Joe]

Then I would suggest that you use 7's, all you're doing is fouling out the 8's quicker with no benefits.


Timing isn't the only thing you need to worry about unless you're strictly performance minded, you work for a shop/dyno and you have more access then most, telling people on a public forum, without knowing details specs of the specific car, that 15 counts of knock is OK sounds very risky to me. As for your FWD, if it's a DD, I would suggest lowering that 25psi down until knock is lowered.


Again, telling an average joe to go ahead and run 850s with piggyback alone isn't exactly ideal.


No need to get defensive, I have no problems with how you decide to run your personal car, I'm simply pointing out that just because something can be done deosn't automatically make it a good idea, safty should always be the first priority, performance comes second.

it was 25psi, pump gas, street tuned with a wideband (before i started working here) and thrown on the dyno to see what it was making, and juts so happens after 2 pulls i didnt even have to touch the tune, oh, and i got 300 miles to a tank with 780cc injectors, evo maf and SAFC, stock eprom chip in ecu. And also, i never said a word about 850's, it was i believe "no more than 750's or 780's" that i said. Knock dont mean shit unless its pulling your timing BAD, like under 15 degrees. Oh, and i get like 2k out of my 8's before i "think" they need changed, and knocks much less in the heat than the 7's. And what you "suggest" means jack to me becaus ei know what works and is ok. Game Over.


Joe
SBR

 

[SBR Joe]

...but back on teh topic...if i was you buddy, i would put your 650's in, pick up an AEM UEGO and street tune, if you see a few counts of knock i wouldnt sweat it...and just to make oldman happy...Tune for under 10 counts.



Joe
SBR

 

[DJ23GSX]

...but back on teh topic...Tune for under 10 counts.



Joe
SBR

Thats been my game plan for a while. My car pulls really hard with less than 7-9 counts.

How much will i really benifit from the 650's? I mean dumping a bunch of fuel isn't exactly the right way to get rid of the knock in this case right?

 

[SBR Joe]

Thats been my game plan for a while. My car pulls really hard with less than 7-9 counts.

How much will i really benifit from the 650's? I mean dumping a bunch of fuel isn't exactly the right way to get rid of the knock in this case right?

Youll benefir by Having more than enough fuel delivery and bring the DC down, betet rto have more fuel than not enough. Since you have tehm you might as well use them.


Joe
SBR

 

[oldman]

it was 25psi, pump gas, street tuned with a wideband (before i started working here) and thrown on the dyno to see what it was making, and juts so happens after 2 pulls i didnt even have to touch the tune, oh, and i got 300 miles to a tank with 780cc injectors, evo maf and SAFC, stock eprom chip in ecu. And also, i never said a word about 850's, it was i believe "no more than 750's or 780's" that i said. Knock dont mean shit unless its pulling your timing BAD, like under 15 degrees. Oh, and i get like 2k out of my 8's before i "think" they need changed, and knocks much less in the heat than the 7's. And what you "suggest" means jack to me becaus ei know what works and is ok. Game Over.

Again, I don't care how you run your car or what you do with my suggestions, what I care about is how your questionable advices can be perceived by less knowledgeable members.

Game over? Are we in 3rd grade? If you don't know how to have respectful discussions, maybe you shouldn't have one. We welcome disagreements but will not tolerate childish behavior.

 

[SBR Joe]

Again, I don't care how you run your car or what you do with my suggestions, what I care about is how your questionable advices can be perceived by less knowledgeable members.

Game over? Are we in 3rd grade? If you don't know how to have respectful discussions, maybe you shouldn't have one. We welcome disagreements but will not tolerate childish behavior.

Childish....hardly. And once again, i will say this only one more time...if i wouldnt suggest or or have laready done it,....it wouldnt be said. Sure to someone of you stature it may seem "agressive" but with proper AFR's and not much knock, theres nothing "unsafe" about what im suggesting, which i have been re-itterating the whole time.


Moral of this story, tune for good AFR's and not much knock. If tuning with only a logger... To make everyone here happy tune for under 10 counts and make sure you o2's are around .87-.89 volts.

Joe
SBR

 

[nightspeed87]

Childish....hardly. And once again, i will say this only one more time...if i wouldnt suggest or or have laready done it,....it wouldnt be said. Sure to someone of you stature it may seem "agressive" but with proper AFR's and not much knock, theres nothing "unsafe" about what im suggesting, which i have been re-itterating the whole time.


Moral of this story, tune for good AFR's and not much knock. If tuning with only a logger... To make everyone here happy tune for under 10 counts and make sure you o2's are around .87-.89 volts.

Joe
SBR

I believe there are two types of tuners ... One who tunes to the threshhold of his set up to push it to a limit with a mind of only performance.
And the tuners whod rather that extra inch of reliability rather than that extra inch of performance, to were if turning the boost down 1 or 2 lbs would be worth not having any knock than getting the extra power with a little knock.

Me personally since I dont have the time or money to rebuild motors at a momments notice or pull it all apart myself or constantly be fixing stuff. So on a daily driver id rather tune for reliability more so then every inch of performance that can be squeeze out. Thats the only difference in you and oldmans arguement and me personally if I gave someone advice id rather them tune with no knock and be on the save side then live with 10 counts whether it was detrimental to the motor or not just because at least that way your advice wouldnt be at fault for just in case situations. As far as tuning your own car yea im sure you do a good job at it and at extracting the most power but the average joe may not do justice of your advice if you know what i mean...
Just my opinion but doesnt matter.

To the op I am still suggesting getting a chip and end all of this safc " cant run too big of injectors" babble..The safc wont even be nessecary after that other than to fine tune which I suggest....

Also have you tried porting your o2 housing, it worked for me, i can hold 9 lbs on the evo3 with no issue just from thoroughly porting...

 

[SBR Joe]

Anything less than 10 counts usually wont pull timing, and yes a chip helps out A LOT. i have since got me a keydiver chip set for my 780s and is much more consistent and alot easier to tune.


Joe
SBR

 

[nightspeed87]

Anything less than 10 counts usually wont pull timing, and yes a chip helps out A LOT. i have since got me a keydiver chip set for my 780s and is much more consistent and alot easier to tune.


Joe
SBR

If only other people would realize this...

( Keydiver, 850s, evo8 mass )

 

[oldman]

Anything less than 10 counts usually wont pull timing,

Again that is simply not true, if you have access to DSMLink forum you would know this. I have been more than patient with you, be careful what and how you post from here on out.

 

[SBR Joe]

Again that is simply not true, if you have access to DSMLink forum you would know this. I have been more than patient with you, be careful what and how you post from here on out.

HOLY SHIT!!! Let me post up a few logs of mine.....8 counts of knock....23 degrees timing. I have not been patiet with you for this exact reason!!! And if you didnt notice...i said "ususlly wont pull timing." And translated into DSM link terms...it may pull .9 degrees of timing with like 7 counts of knock...if that. Gimme a break. You own a dsm, you should know to not worry about knock under 10 counts.



Joe Shuler
Slowboy Racing

 

[DJ23GSX]

If only other people would realize this...

( Keydiver, 850s, evo8 mass )

I do realize this but i don't have the $300-400 lying around for an eprom and chip.

The 2g o2 housing on the car now is only mildly ported. I have a 2g one i just finished porting the hell out of that i will be putting on soon. I am hoping i don't have to pull the turbo off and port the turbine housing but i guess i'll do what i have to do

 

[nightspeed87]

How bout everyone keep there knock under 7 at all times and be happy...

 

[SBR Joe]

How bout everyone keep there knock under 7 at all times and be happy...

I dunno man...u might wanan ask Oldman first and see if its ok to post this information.


Joe Shuler
Slowboy Racing. INC.

 

[nightspeed87]

I do realize this but i don't have the $300-400 lying around for an eprom and chip.

The 2g o2 housing on the car now is only mildly ported. I have a 2g one i just finished porting the hell out of that i will be putting on soon. I am hoping i don't have to pull the turbo off and port the turbine housing but i guess i'll do what i have to do

Damn I would have an extra one id sell you when i sell this gst because im setting this car back to stock injectors, mass and chip before I sell it but i dont know how soon its getting sold. And this eprom is in mint condition never had leaking caps.
The awd im getting already has an eprom ecu... But anyways porting the o2 is fairly easy if you have a hand held dremel.. Take off the four bolts to the o2 housing, pull out the o2 sensor, and take off the two bolts that hold the o2 housing to the downpipe and boom there you go. And get to porting and reinstall in exact order....

 

[oldman]

HOLY SHIT!!! Let me post up a few logs of mine.....8 counts of knock....23 degrees timing. I have not been patiet with you for this exact reason!!! And if you didnt notice...i said "ususlly wont pull timing."

I'm not going to argue with you on this because you're wrong, many things determines timing, not only knock count. Having 23 degree of timing in a log doesn't tell you whether or not timing is being pulled due to knock. ECU pulls 1 degree of timing for every 3 counts of knock immediately when knock is detected ( degree of timing pulled = knock count x .35), even when TMO was wrong, they still said 7 counts.

With 10 counts of knock, you're seeing 3.35 degree of pulled timing due to knock, that is the bottom line.

 

[SBR Joe]

I'm not going to argue with you on this because you're wrong, many things determines timing, not only knock count. Having 23 degree of timing in a log doesn't tell you whether or not timing is being pulled due to knock. ECU pulls 1 degree of timing for every 3 counts of knock immediately when knock is detected ( degree of timing pulled = knock count x .35), even when TMO was wrong, they still said 7 counts.

With 10 counts of knock, you're seeing 3.35 degree of pulled timing due to knock, that is the bottom line.

SO WHAT!! If the car is making 23 degrees of timing with 8 counts of knock...its FINE. 23 degrees is more than enough timing. This is pretty elementary. The point is with some knock it wont affect performance enough to drive yourself crazy about it, thats all i have been saying.


Joe Shuler
Slowboy Racing INC

 

[Slowboy]

Thats been my game plan for a while. My car pulls really hard with less than 7-9 counts.

How much will i really benifit from the 650's? I mean dumping a bunch of fuel isn't exactly the right way to get rid of the knock in this case right?

Let's get really basic here for a moment.

90-95% IDC is way to high, ask yourself what happens to the fuel when you run really high IDC's and you will help answer your own question if using 650's will help you or not.

It is not about dumping more fuel in that will help you reduce your knock counts.

I remember back in the day when I used 950's, a hacked 2G mas, SAFC, and a GT35R - before I owned a dyno - one of the very reasons my car ran so well was low IDC's, and the factory ECU giving me gobs of timing. The car never saw a dyno and ran 128-130 MPH.

I threw my pocket logger out the window somewhere on the PA turnpike trying to tune that car for no knock - the difference between 15 counts of knock and 30 was only about 2 MPH in the 1/4 mile. Have not used a logger since, only work from AFR's, and now I obviously have a dyno

Try not to use a butt dyno, get your car to the track, or a dyno and log your results - and only then post your results. It is really hard to quantify "my car pulls really hard with only 7-9 counts".

Good luck,

Mike Huml
SBR Inc.