Buying cams. Anything else i need?

[tondef_82]

I'm looking into getting a new set of cams. Right now I'm thinking stage 2 probably stage 3.
I currently have the basic bolt ons (Cold air intake, headers, exhaust). If i were to get a
set of cams what else would i need to upgrade?
The site I'm looking to buy them from suggest a new set of valve springs and retainers.
Other than these what else would i need?

 

[mnr88talon]

i havent done any upgrades to my engine yet but ive been looking into getting cams too.. i think another thing youll need besides the valve springs and retainers is some adjustable cam gears

 

[talonalex92]

I run aftermarket cams on the stock head. Works fine for me, what size are you thinking? I wouldnt bother. Spend that cash and paint your car one color.

 

[bullettdsm]

With "light mods" I would suggest Crower 2's. The Crower 3's are way too agressive and you won't be able to take advantage of their characteristics without heavy air flow modifications (in conjunction with a tuning device).

There is no need to upgrade springs or retainers.

MB

 

[loser_635]

to Bullet:

Crower lists two Stage twos, Crower Cams & Equipment - Mitsubishi - Camshafts .


I take it that turbo should get teh turbo ones and that all motor should get the 3/4 Race ones. BUT it says "#84176 required" with those cams.
and #84176 is this, Crower Cams & Equipment

so...

 

[Locke]

You won't need retainers unless yours are cupped, cracked, or otherwise worn.

You won't need adjustable cam gears either, but having them will allow you to tweak their characteristics a bit.

You'd want to upgrade your valve springs with Crower 3's. Everybody says to upgrade springs with Corwer 2's as well, but Mark will tell you differently as he has ran them fast with the mushy factory springs without signs of floating.

Mark knows what he's talking about.

 

[bullettdsm]

to Bullet:

Crower lists two Stage twos, Crower Cams & Equipment - Mitsubishi - Camshafts .


I take it that turbo should get teh turbo ones and that all motor should get the 3/4 Race ones. BUT it says "#84176 required" with those cams.
and #84176 is this, Crower Cams & Equipment

so...

Yeah, they want to sell their springs and retainers

Let's see, with stock internals, crower 2's, UDP, exhaust, 60mm TB and ported intake (on an engine with 140k-ish), I ran the engine up to 8500rpm no problem (Had an AFX/ECU that somehow allowed me to rev up to 8500rpm. It since fell back to 7800 WTF). I ran it this way for about 10k miles, until I rebuilt for better internals, more power. I went to a new set-up of 10.9 comp with JE's, but still ran the stocker springs and retainers (though I did change out to stainless valves. It's something I always do on a rebuild that I change valves on). Again, no problems. Keep in mind that I am racing and daily driving my car at the time. I literally will bounce off the limiter in the water pit. I was in the 170whp range as I was doing this (something you won't have to worry about). No signs of valve float or anything on the dyno.

It wasn't until I went to Crower 3's that I started using the upgraded springs (read springs only) and that was because I felt it was needed for the added lift and sharper ramp of the C3's.

Just a little background of my experience.

MB

 

[loser_635]

Mark knows what he's talking about.

I didnt doubt him, its just I read 2 different things from reliable sources.

Alright so now ima go for stage 2 too!

Thanks for that info Locke and Bullet.

PS.Any other way to remove revlimit other than AFXECU,I got a 98

 

[bullettdsm]

PS.Any other way to remove revlimit other than AFXECU,I got a 98

Megasquirt is about the best way. The AFX/ECU was only developed for the 97. Though a few have apparently used it on other years. It required a bit of ecu pin switching and checking etc.

Megasquirt will require a good amount of reading and learning in order to use it though. You can read through here to start;

www.MSefi.com • Index page

And damn Locke for beating me to the punch again

MB

 

[tondef_82]

I run aftermarket cams on the stock head. Works fine for me, what size are you thinking? I wouldnt bother. Spend that cash and paint your car one color.

Not very concerned with the aesthetics right now bro. Would prefer to spend some money
on the engine, But keep it N/A at the same time. Not looking to drag race the car. Just
want it to be a little quicker on the street.

Hey bullet how are those stage 3's on the street? I would like to know how they behave.
Since while daily driving you normally stay on the low rev's and i read that stage 3's make
power above 3200. Wondering what there like below 3200 rev's.

And beside valves, retainers, springs, etc would i need some kind of fuel adjustment?
This is where I'm lost.

 

[Locke]

You won't need to make any fuel adjustments with the Crower 3's, but you will probably wan't to - you will idle very rich due to the lack of vacuum. An SAFC can help you here if you are unhappy with fuel consumption or the quality of the idle.

edit: I have no personal experience with cammed 420a's, (wait for Mark to chime in again here) but Crower 3's will be inherently less streetable than the stockers, due to increased overlap and shorter LSA. If you do get adjustable cam gears you would have the option to widen the LSA, thus lessening overlap. This will smooth your idle by increasing vacuum and the wider LSA will shift power from the top end to the low-mid area while widening the power-band, though usually at a loss of peak HP of course. I pose this option without knowing your specific goals, bear in mind.

 

[bullettdsm]

You won't need to make any fuel adjustments with the Crower 3's, but you will probably wan't to - you will idle very rich due to the lack of vacuum. An SAFC can help you here if you are unhappy with fuel consumption or the quality of the idle.

edit: I have no personal experience with cammed 420a's, (wait for Mark to chime in again here) but Crower 3's will be inherently less streetable than the stockers, due to increased overlap and shorter LSA. If you do get adjustable cam gears you would have the option to widen the LSA, thus lessening overlap. This will smooth your idle by increasing vacuum and the wider LSA will shift power from the top end to the low-mid area while widening the power-band, though usually at a loss of peak HP of course. I pose this option without knowing your specific goals, bear in mind.

Again

When he's right, he's right. I couldn't imagine using the C3's as regular engine streetables. My peak power point right now is 7600ish (though of course my set-up is a bit more aggressive than street now). If you try to use them you will lose quite a bit of low end power (not to mention idle problems). As Locke stated you can dial out some of the overlap but then you are kinda defeating the purpose of the C3's. Unless you have some internal port work, higher comp psitons and full tuning device, I wouldn't recommend the C3's on the street (even at that point they will not be fun down low).

As for fuel management, MSnS will handle both fuel and spark.

And just because we don't speak about LSA too much (I had to figure out what the acronym LSA was, ), I thought I would explain it a little. But then as I tried to explain it, I fugured I'd just punch up an explanation from the net .

Courtesy of nightrider.com

"Camshaft Technology
Understanding Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)

LSA is the Lobe Separation Angle or the number of degrees between the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines. The LSA has a direct relationship to amount of overlap on a cam. Cams with identical duration and lift specifications can have very different LSAs. Generally speaking, a wide LSA will produce greater low end torque and a narrow separation angle will produce better top end power. For any given LSA, an engine will give similar torque curves and peak torque RPMs even with different overlaps."

MB

 

[tondef_82]

Thanks a lot guys. Think I'll go with crower stage 2's and Fidenza cam gears.
Might get that sfac locke was talking about to fix some idle issues and excess fuel
consumption. Wanted to get the head worked but can't really afford the down time, I'll
probably wont need it with the stage 2's right. The only problem is that here in the valley
there are no dyno's to tune the car in. So might go with the -2 in the exhaust and +2 on
the intake as a base line and see what happens.

 

[Slippi84]

I don't knwo who your gonna order your cams from but be careful as neon cams and eclipse cams are diffrent. Trust me you will thank youserlf in the long run for being anal in making sure your getting the right cams.

 

[bullettdsm]

I don't knwo who your gonna order your cams from but be careful as neon cams and eclipse cams are diffrent. Trust me you will thank youserlf in the long run for being anal in making sure your getting the right cams.

! I'm laughing with you not at you (I hope)

MB

 

[Slippi84]

! I'm laughing with you not at you (I hope)

MB

It's ok I laugh at it too sometimes It's ok wait till you see the new pics and info I"m putting up in the next week or so.

 

[deviousgst]

if you have stock injectors, then you should look into buying some bigger injectors

 

[Slippi84]

if you have stock injectors, then you should look into buying some bigger injectors

Why would he do that? That would just cause the need for tuning device when with just cams and bolt ons his stock injectors will do just fine.

 

[mnr88talon]

mnr88talon hope you get a good idea on what you're getting for you car out of this too.[/QUOTE]


i was looking at the site modernperformance.com... they are all about the 420A it looks like, or they used to be anyways..

Crane cams - 431-0010 Great for daily driving with good mid range. Use low restriction intake/exhaust and aftermarket ECM for max performance. Works well with stock engine compression. RPM range idle-6,500

they also have a bad ass top end rebuild kit i was looking at

i didnt really wanna go all out on my 420a since im still in college and now im transferring to Penn State university park so i dont want to have my baby up there..

but thanks to everyone whos been saying that you dont need aftermarket retainers and valvesprings because most websites say that you DO need them --most likely to make the mo' moneys -- that really cleared things up

 

[bullettdsm]

................but thanks to everyone whos been saying that you dont need aftermarket retainers and valvesprings because most websites say that you DO need them --most likely to make the mo' moneys -- that really cleared things up

That is precisely the reason that I kept the stockers in as long as I did. I wanted....no needed......to prove a point. I saw too many posts saying that people needed to upgrade valvetrain when they just didn't need to. I'm glad you chose the latter.

MB

 

[tondef_82]

I hope you're prepared to wait for them

Whys that? Does CI take long to deliver?
If so what other company would you recommend.

 

[cs82685]

Whys that? Does CI take long to deliver?
If so what other company would you recommend.

well i would recommend reading a few reviews on them before ordering, since this site doesn't allow reviews.

quickly though, my personal experience was waiting 2 weeks for a test pipe when I live one state away. There are plenty of other stories out there, might I suggest reading a few of the ones on 2gnt

 

[tondef_82]

Hey thanks for the heads up man. Yea I'll research before buying first.
Only other place that sells them, that i know of, would be nopi.com.
Anybody know how they work?

 

[bullettdsm]

Summit, SBR (talk to Jeff B)....just off the top of my head. Roll the dice if you choose CI.

MB

 

[tondef_82]

I checked Summit out bullet but they only carry crane. I'm more into crower, for no real reason. I guess I'll go with CI, don't really matter if they take up to two weeks to deliver I'm not in a rush.