Building a 6-bolt. I have a few questions.....

[99gst_racer]

I just started to piece everything together to build a 6-bolt motor to drop into my 2G. I've been researching and pricing out all of the internals for the head and block and I came across a few questions.

My goals for the new motor are you be around 450 whp. I dont want to get too greedy.

My parts of the head can I re-use?
I am obviously going to replace the cams, valves, guides, and stem seals. But what about the springs, retainers, locks, etc? I just need to know what part won't handle the 450WHP and 8000ish rpm revs....

I've talked to a few of my high-HP DSM buddys, as well as a couple good machine shops, and I decided to have the block o-ringed. Would you guys also recommend have the head o-ringed too, or just the block?

Regaurding pistons - I have narrowed it down to either JE or Wiseco. Do you guys recommend one over the other?
Also; this car is going to be a street driven car (highway monster). Do you recommend an 8.5:1 or a 9.0:1 compression ratio?

This is going to be a fall/winter project, so I'm in no hurry with it. I'd rather first get all my ducks in a row and have everything well planned out before I make any purchases. Thanks in advance.

 

[Quasimondo]

Unless you're going with oversized valves, keep them.

Unless the timing belt snapped and the pistons smaked into the valves, bending them, keep the valve guides.

Stock springs should be enough to prevent valve float at 8000 rpm's, but if you want the added insurance, you can go with dual valve springs, maybe somebody can chime in on this one.

Retainers and locks are fine as long as you don't lose them.

From what I remember about JE pistons, they're not suited for daily driving. The expansion rate for the metal they use is such that you get piston slap when the engine is cold. Wiseco may be a better choice. As far as compression ratios go, that's dependent upon how good your tuning skills or the skills of whoever it is that will be tuning your engine. Higher compression means more power, but the tradeoff is a smaller tuning window to get things done right. Since this is your daily driver, my personal preference would be go with the 8.5:1 pistons so there's a less likely chance of a batch of bad gas doing your motor in.

 

[Suparata]

Unless you're going with oversized valves, keep them.

Unless the timing belt snapped and the pistons smaked into the valves, bending them, keep the valve guides.
...
Retainers and locks are fine as long as you don't lose them.
....

Stock valve are pretty good but SS valves are better. 550HP is easier to get with 1mm oversized valves than it is with stock size so go with what your wallet allows.

Valve guides needs to be checked (especially against the valves that will be used) and then you can make the call if they need to be replaced, same goes for locks/keepers. Manganese Bronze guides are the best choice but there are a lot of shops that do not like to use them because they are not set up to work with bronze since it takes more than just reaming them to size like the cast iron ones so don’t be fooled by claims that they are not better. Also make sure the correct size (especially ID) guides are used since most of the ones on the market are too big to begin with. Shops do not like to “waste” time with accurately sizing them so they would rather have them loose to get the heads “out the door” ASAP.

 

[Suparata]

Paul
I wouldn’t O-ring anything for your application. Mitsu MLS or Cometic HP would definatelly do the job with two good surfaces. And if something has to fail because of bad tuning, the head gasket is my choice over other internal components.
Look for more info here
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1611746#post1611746

 

[99gst_racer]

Unless you're going with oversized valves, keep them.

Yes, I am definitely going Ferrea 1mm oversize valves.

Unless the timing belt snapped and the pistons smaked into the valves, bending them, keep the valve guides.

Sure enough, the t-belt did snap; most of the valves are bent, so I am definitely going to be replacing the guides.

Stock springs should be enough to prevent valve float at 8000 rpm's, but if you want the added insurance, you can go with dual valve springs, maybe somebody can chime in on this one.

This is a very important question for me. Springs are expensive. I dont want to replace my stockers unless I need to. The same applys to locks and retainers.

From what I remember about JE pistons, they're not suited for daily driving. The expansion rate for the metal they use is such that you get piston slap when the engine is cold. Wiseco may be a better choice. As far as compression ratios go, that's dependent upon how good your tuning skills or the skills of whoever it is that will be tuning your engine. Higher compression means more power, but the tradeoff is a smaller tuning window to get things done right. Since this is your daily driver, my personal preference would be go with the 8.5:1 pistons so there's a less likely chance of a batch of bad gas doing your motor in.

I heard the same thing about JE, but I wasnt sure if it was fact or fiction. I have a nice set of JE's here in stock, and the Wiseco's are going to be a special order for me. They are both the same price though. I will probably just go with the 8.5:1 Wiseco's, but I had one more question. What is the negative affects of running 9.0:1 on the street?

 

[Mike1992]

Id like to get some info to

Your probably going with aftermarket cams right? If so wouldnt it be a "good idea" to upgrade the springs if you plan for at least another 100,000 miles out of the new engine. The way i see it, "I" maybe you also have near 100k on the stock motor and want another good 100k out of the new one and using higher lift/duration cams on old worn springs may not last even at the stock 7k redline. What are your opinions. Im on the process of rebuilding my engine also, and have the bottom end decided, but the top end has me questioning myself.

 

[99gst_racer]

Paul
I wouldn’t O-ring anything for your application. Mitsu MLS or Cometic HP would definatelly do the job with two good surfaces. And if something has to fail because of bad tuning, the head gasket is my choice over other internal components.
Look for more info here
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1611746#post1611746

You dont think I'll need to o-ring the block?
I do plan to run about 30 psi daily and I plan to be around 50-60 lbs/min. I've heard many instances where that kind of use could begin to push coolant; even with an HP Cometic. And I know many people that have had good luck 30psi+ with a Cometic HP and an o-ringed block. Thats why I ask if I will be OK or not. Obviously, the less machine work, the better, but I need to know what's best for me.

Thanks alot for the advice so far.

 

[99gst_racer]

Id like to get some info to

Your probably going with aftermarket cams right? If so wouldnt it be a "good idea" to upgrade the springs if you plan for at least another 100,000 miles out of the new engine. The way i see it, "I" maybe you also have near 100k on the stock motor and want another good 100k out of the new one and using higher lift/duration cams on old worn springs may not last even at the stock 7k redline. What are your opinions. Im on the process of rebuilding my engine also, and have the bottom end decided, but the top end has me questioning myself.

Honestly, I only put about 5K on my car every year. I doubt I'll ever put 100K on this rebuild. I'm more worried about performance than longevity. I can pick up most of the Ferrea head components for pretty cheap, but the springs are expensive. I want to use the stockers is I can safely get away with it, but if I need upgraded springs, then I'll have to bite the bullet. And yes, cams are a definite. I will be running Comps.

Will dual valve springs make much of a difference? Would you consider them a necessity for my goals?

 

[Quasimondo]

If you're planning on going 30 psi on pump gas, then you really don't need to be going with a 9.0:1 piston. It can be done, but like I said before, you have less room for error when tuning, and it's that much easier for a bad batch of gas, a boost spike, or turning a knob on the afc the wrong way to do you in. If you go with 9.0:1 pistons, don't plan on running as much boost, the upside is that you will have a more responsive engine when it's off boost, which makes daily driving a bit more pleasurable.

 

[liquordrunk]

This is a very important question for me. Springs are expensive. I dont want to replace my stockers unless I need to. The same applys to locks and retainers.


QUOTE]

You should try www.jacksonautomachine.com
They ahve a pretty good deal on ti retainers and springs. Thats who i went with when i built up my 2.3

 

[Forsakened]

30 psi with what turbo, and for springs/retainers definately go with crower.

 

[99gst_racer]

30 psi with what turbo, and for springs/retainers definately go with crower.

Not sure what turbo I will be using yet. I have about a year to decide..... More than likely, I'll go with a BB turbo from FP. Thanks for the Crower recommendation. I'm going to price out Crowers and Manleys when I get back into my office tomorrow. Hopefully they are cheaper than the Ferreas that I have in stock.....

 

[MNGSX]

Actually at that HP level the stock replacement headgasket is fine and dandy.. It has been proven to hold well above that with ARP studs and has less potential for problems around the coolant and oil passages.

 

[99gst_racer]

Anybody got the part numbers for the Crower or Manley valve springs? Both my catalogs have them listed according to O.D.

 

[Mike1992]

SBR lists the Crower Spring/Retainer set as CRO 84175
SBR lists Manley Springs as Manley 22125-16
SBR lists Manley Retainers as Manley 23125-16, but package says 2398SB

 

[project_tsi]

Paul damnit.

Eagle rods
Wiseco pistons
Clevite bearings
BSEK
ARP rods, mains, and head studs
Cometic high press head gasket, no need to go oring
Ported, polished head
HKS 272's
Crower Ti Springs/ retainers
Ferrea 1mm ovesize SS valves
Adj. cam gears.
Kevlar t-belt
T3-T4 hybrid turbo
Fidanza Flywheel
SBR 3500 clutch
Magnus manifold
T-3 SS ex. mani
Run 35 psi daily

Get something better to tune with, like link damnit

Run 11's in your ol FWD.

Do it damnit. Done done done.

Just kidding pauly, I know you wont half ass it, like you wanted to, Ill make you build it up right.

 

[99gst_racer]

We have a winner. I've decided to use the Crower kit (instock here, and less than $200!), instead of using the stock stuff.

And I do have yet another question. I have a 1G head and a 2G head lying around. Which would be better to use on this buildup? Whichever one I decide on will be ported also.

So, Here's my list so far. Let me know if there is something you would personally change:

Head:
* Ferrea valve stem seals and oversized copper-alloy guides
* Ferrea 6000 Series intake valves 1mm OS
* Ferrea Competition Plus exhaust valves 1mm OS (better for heat than the 6000 series)
* Stock valve locks (or Ferreas if I loose any of the stockers)
* Crower single springs and retainers
* Comp cams (not sure which ones yet, 101's, the 102's, or a combo)
* Cometic HP head gasket
* ARP head studs

Block:
* Weisco pistons - 8.5:1 compression .020 over
* Eagle rods (i am going to weigh them first on a scale to make sure they are all the same)
* stock crank and main caps
* B-shaft elim
* Clevite bearings

 

[project_tsi]

paul, you planning on doing ARP mains too? How bout these here, unneeded billet caps.
http://www.jacksonautomachine.com/html/shopping/list_section.cfm?sectionId=29

I actually would go 9:1 comp. And use link to tune. If your going for a good tune anyways, get the 9:1's and have fun. I think I read before that stock to stock 6 bolt heads are better, duh, but that all said and done ported and shit, the 7 bolts have more potential, but I may be wrong. Like i said before, too, Id go HKS 272's w/ adj cam gears.

 

[arash15]

the 2g head has a better angle at the valves compared to a 1g. if i were you i'd port the 2g head. big holes dont mean shit!

 

[99gst_racer]

paul, you planning on doing ARP mains too?

Yeah, I have those in stock here also.

How bout these here, unneeded billet caps.
http://www.jacksonautomachine.com/html/shopping/list_section.cfm?sectionId=29

Nice, but like you said, unneeded.

I actually would go 9:1 comp. And use link to tune. If your going for a good tune anyways, get the 9:1's and have fun.

No, with the 8.5:1 being safer for a street driven car, I think I'd rather go that route.

I think I read before that stock to stock 6 bolt heads are better, duh, but that all said and done ported and shit, the 7 bolts have more potential, but I may be wrong.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna use the 2G head.

Like i said before, too, Id go HKS 272's w/ adj cam gears.

The Comp 101200's are almost identical to the HKS 272's, and we both know I can get the Comps for next-to-nothing. But, yes, that is the profile that I'll want/need. I'm not yet sure if I'll need adjustable cam gears, but if I do, I have my eye on the Fidanza's.

 

[MNGSX]

Stock headgasket!

You can o-ring with it too but at your Hp not needed...