Anyone else interested in long titanium rods?

[MNGSX]

Mods...

I know vendors can't start group buys... I'm not a vendor....

Please let me know if all group buys are a no-go.

I'm not even at the buy phase yet.. This is different than a GB discount on something more mainstream like a turbo timer or a Evo 16g or something.

Ok.. Back to buisness.

I am currently seeking price quotes on titanium con rods...

Right now around $465 each is the best price. Crower.. I'm still waiting for returned emails and calls on some other companies.

All the rod shops discount based on how many are ordered.

Average discount per rod/ # ordered to get the discount

$20/8
$30/12
$40/16

They will be 12mm longer than stock for use in the taller decked 4G64 engine with a 4g63 crank.

You can use stocking pistons from some MFG's
A .080 overbore 4g63 stroker piston (87.0mm) fits a 4g64 block at .020 overbore (87.0mm). It's wrist pin is moved closer to the dome by 6mm since a 4g63 has a 6mm lower deck height. Put it in a 2.4 block with a 2.0 crank and you have 12mm more room for rod length and a much lighter and stable piston due to pin placement.

A 87.0mm piston designed for a regular 4g64 weighs around 30-40 grams more than a stroker piston depending on the manufacturer. The stroker pistons wrist pin location makes for a lighter piston...

Titanium wrist pins (JE stocks them) would cut another 30-40 grams depending on what steel pins you compare them to.

Ross can make them... ask swordfish about his pistons. I'm going custom with bore size however Wiseco stocks 87.0mm pistons so lower priced options exist here too.

The idea is to shave as much weight off of everything without sacrificing durablilty or longevity.

Estimates but very very close to actual component weight. Variances between MFG's make it an estimate.

280 grams saved per rod. = 1120 grams
20 grams per piston (conservative could be 40g) = 80 grams to 160grams

40 grams per wrist pin= 160 grams

1360-1440 grams saved.

Some of that is rotating weight and some reciprocating.

I'll need to know big end and piston pin end weights on the rods to figure out how much of the 1120 grams saved is where. The piston and pin weight savings is all reciprocating. I have got some formulas around here... In a nutshell between the piston, wrist pin weight reduction and rod weight and length changes A LOT of parisitic power loss and strain on the rod is eliminated.

It's a bottom end 2.99lbs to 3.17lbs lighter on a long rod motor than a billet steel short rod motor. Now imagine using a knife edged crankshaft. (Bj's shaves about 7lbs off a crank.)

Then there is flywheel reduction lets say ACT. 11.25-19 = 7.75lbs. So the 14.75lbs of rotational mass reduction from the crank and flywheel looks good. It decreases parasitic loss and increases throttle response it does'nt help the engine stay together anywhere near as good as the strong but very light rod and piston assemblies. Cranks and flywheels don't go from zero to max piston speed and back again during a revolution like the pin end of a rod or a piston and pin. You are cutting almost 18lbs of weight off of the moving parts of the engine while increasing strength. Like I said in another thread spending 2x as much to get titanium rods may amount to a completed car that only cost 20% more. Not too bad considering the dramatic gains.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

If this didn't happen til' next fall I'd be in, but I don't think right now is a good time. Let's see what the price ends up at. I would also like to know what would end up coming off the reciprocating mass. Nice to see someone else would actually rather have a de-stroked 2.1L, for all intensive purposes, than a 2.38L. I'd gladly pay around $800 next fall for these.

Andy

 

[MNGSX]

I'd pay $800 right now...

They will cost $1200 minimum....

Oh and I found an affordable non-custom piston that will do what I want it to do. It has just the right wrist pin height and is a forged stroker piston for another 4cyl turbo engine...

 

[greathuskie]

thats almost 2000 dollars for rods...i wouldnt spend that much, with all thats available, groden, crower, pauter, they are all fine, how much of a difference would these make compared to those?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by greathuskie
thats almost 2000 dollars for rods...i wouldnt spend that much, with all thats available, groden, crower, pauter, they are all fine, how much of a difference would these make compared to those?

Well for starters they will likely be made by people like pauter and crower. Pauter will make titanium rods but they want an arm, two legs and a testicle to do it ($600 a rod) instead of an arm and a leg. Forged Titanium rods from crower is around 2x pauter forged steel rods. An extra $800 on already full race engine is'nt too hard to swallow. Groden makes aluminum rods which are nice but aluminum rods only last so long. They work harden and get brittle after a while. Aluminum rods are also very bulky dimensionally.

Titanium is just as strong, just as precise but much lighter. On the order of 20-30% lighter than a forged steel rod in some cases. The hotrod link I have below says titanium rods are 20% lighter than forged but I have documented ti rods that are 30% lighter than the same MFG's forged steel rod. You get the strength of a forged steel rod but the weight is about that of an aluminum rod.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/index.html

Some people spend $350-$400 per wheel like SSR type C's, Volk or other really light wheels... Me I prefer to get my combination of weight and strength via an investment in the guts of the block. Id rather spend it knowing I had the best rods in an already expensive engine. You get the durability of a forged rod with a response and efficiency they cannot match.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/index1.html

Reciprocating weight accelerates to a stop then changes direction. Rotating weight moves in a single direction. Loosely speaking, removing one ounce of reciprocating weight is more beneficial to longevity and efficiency than removing a pound of rotating weight. In other words, don’t waste time grinding the crank counterweights. Concentrate first on the rods, pistons, and pins.

Trust me the difference is very dramatic.

All that energy freed up used to do was try to tear your connecting rods apart.

The reciprocating assembly can't store any momentum.. I just cancels out and consumes it's own momentum. It goes up and down never moving in one direction long enough to store anywhere near the amount of energy 3#s of flywheel can store yet each ounce of reciprocating weight was like trying to spin a pound of crankshaft weight.

Just using titanium wrist pins is like taking 5.6 lbs off the crankshaft. Since each gram of reciprocating weight needs to be accelerated and deccelerated very quickly and often it takes alot more energy to cycle The flywheel does'nt spin one way and have to spin back the other way. Think how much more fuel per second did it take to get 60 quick vs cruising at 60 in 5th.

If you auto cross or just want to run 11-12's get eagle's standard rods. If you dig drag get as serious with your conrods as auto-xers get with tire and wheel combos. You need rods that can get wailed on. Granted forged steel rods can handle high power the disadvantage is that the increased weight soaks up some of it. You wont get 30% more power than a steel rod engine all things being equal. What you will get is connecting rods that eat 30% less of the engines gross power output as the same strength steel rod. If you have a budget that involves sponsors and using up more than one engine each season then just run aluminum. Some teams run titanium because they outlast many sets of aluminum rods.

To stay in budget if it came down to stock wheels and titanium rods vs forged steel rods and 14lb alloy wheels.. I'll take the rods it will be much faster all things being equal.


hey Andy..

I'd prefer something with the attributes of the 2.1 but displacement beyond that.. The way work and lifes little unexpected sh6t storms are going I might not be done untill mid summer now anyway. But the 2.XX liter will be worth it despite being belated. IMHO worth it just for the self satifaction of being able to build my dream engine.

Fixed some typos

 

[talonted_one]

if you were making these rods for a 4g64 long rod motor i might be interested depending on the final price.

 

[MNGSX]

You really can't make a 4g64 into a long rod motor.. Just 6mm longer as opposed to 12mm...

W/o alot of radical block work you get around 2.1liters but actually displace more air (pump more air) with the 2.1 up top than a 2.4 down low.

My 2.xx will be a close match for a 4g64's static displacement yet have alot better VE due to the shorter stroke combined with the bore. A bigger cylinder helps the valves breath at all RPMs and the shorter stroke keeps it coming untill you bounce it off the limiter or shift.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

Originally posted by MNGSX


hey Andy..

I'd prefer something with the attributes of the 2.1 but displacement beyond that.. The way work and lifes little unexpected sh6t storms are going I might not be done untill mid summer now anyway. But the 2.XX liter will be worth it despite being belated. IMHO worth it just for the self satifaction of being able to build my dream engine.

I hear all of that. I can't build my dream motor untill at least next fall if not later. Unless if my latest project actually pays off . BTW, I was taking the optimistic approach when I said $800. $1200+/- would be do-able next fall. Keep us posted, even if they do think we're crazy!

Andy

 

[MNGSX]

I got one place to cut about $40 off a rod for just one order.

It's a start..

 

[out there]

do you get a discount for ordering rods that aren't 12mm longer? say... stock length for the 4g63? i think i'm a little more interested in staying at 2L with this car

 

[MNGSX]

Probably.

If alot of people wanted stock dimension rods they would get a good break.

They plan batches of Ti rods and tool up for machining titanium forgings when they have enough orders to justify doing it.

It's cost less per rod in equipment setup and materials with more units made even if one set were slightly longer. They still had to fire up the same machines since the CNC work at the rod ends would be the same regardless of the length. Length changes alone don't cost that much at all. It costs more if there are fewer rods made that share the most intensive machining processes.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

I've been looking into 2 sets of 6mm longer rods. One for a 6 bolt and the other for a 7 bolt. If you order anything in a few months hollar at me and let me know what you come up with.

I wouldn't mind trying out the 12mm longer rod in one of the setups, I'm just a tad worried about how they are going to hold together. Has anyone had any long term testing on a somewhat daily driven car with that style piston? Also you mentioned that there is a car that has a pin raised that high which would this be?? If the design has a good reputation I guess we wouldn't need any extra testing.

 

[MNGSX]

I thought I was being pretty descriptive.

A 2.0 AKA 4G63 has a deck height 6mm lower than a 2.4 block aka 4g64.

A 4g64 has a 100mm stroke a 4g63 has an 88mm stroke. The difference in stroke is 12mm half of which is 6mm. Which is why the 2.4 block is 6mm taller.

So a 2.4 crank in a 2.0 block requires a piston wrist pin 6mm closer to the deck.

Use stroker pistons in a 4g64 with the 100mm stroke and you can use 6mm longer rods. I think wiseco is the only one that makes a stroker piston big enough for a 4g64 block an on the shelf piston = non custom.

Use the same piston in a 4g64 block but using a 4g63 crank and you get another 6mm room for rod length. So you need 12mm longer rods.

The pistons that will be used by most people will be identical to 2.3 stroker pistons but in a 87.0mm bore. They have been proven to hold up very well.

The pistons from the other application are custom forged stroker pistons for a different manufacturers turbocharged 4cyl. Wiseco forged pistons for a another import 4cyl turbo stroker that is'nt a mitsu. The pin height is the same. The bore is bigger and it has less dish on the piston crown. So as far as matching up with the 88mm stroke they are better as far as compression ratio. These pistons will require a sleeved block or else you would be looking at a water jacket passage in the cylinder bore. I am witholding details because I want to do it before someone else.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I thought I was being pretty descriptive.

Me too, I figuered we all had that figured out by now , but I was just wondering how these pistons with pins raised have been holding together. I didn't realize the 2.3 kits used raised pistons. I never looked into them, don't like the idea. But, if thats the case my questions have been answered.

thanks

 

[MNGSX]

No one else wants to do it...

Looks like custom length forged steel rods. About $680 for all four.

I'm still doing Ti wrist pins...

I'll just need to buy an intake and some cams now...

 

[hose101772]

I would think some 156mil rods with 6 bolt big ends and 2g size little ends would be more useful.Those would be a bolt in option for both 64/63 motors,get a touch more R/S and bigger pins.

 

[Nocturnalrs]

When would the 12mm longer Ti rods be ready. I defenitly want a set.

Thanks,
Justin
(480)-593-0725