Air/fuel gauge questions

[91rtstealth]

cool...I think I might order an air/fuel gauge. I"d like to know if my car is running rich or if it's just a smelly exhaust leak. I'm assuming that most people with turbo cars have an air/fuel gauge for the main purpose of monitoring boost leak, right? rich fuel mix generally equals boost leak. I just don't know why one would buy a narrow band or a wide band. I don't understand the different (in newbie terms).

I saw the custom gauge cluster pods that hold a gauge in each corner. I love that. It looks nice and stock, so I might order one and put my boost gauge in one side and an air fuel in the other. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with these items on ebay. I want to make sure they actually fit well and aren't a huge PITA to modify to fit.

OBX 95-99 ECLIPSE GSX GST GAUGE POD CLUSTER BEZEL 52MM | eBay

95 96 97 98 99 EAGLE TALON DSM CLUSTER GAUGE POD DASH | eBay

i'm wondering which of the two look better and fit better. Anyone have either of these?

ps....this car is quickly going from cheap beater to pride and joy. Dammit cars are money pits..haha...

 

[NHerron]

Most cars wont have a wideband sensor. In the case of DSMs, we don't. Technically, they have narrowband sensors which only covers a small range of air to fuel ratio which is, 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR. It's there for the ECU to monitor A/F ratio during closed loop operation which is only during cruise, light throttle, and idling. This is mainly to maximize fuel economy and emissions since the ideal stoichiometric ratio is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel. Higher voltage basically means more fuel is present than the ideal ratio of 14.7:1. An example of this rich mixture could be 10.7:1.

A wideband is just what it sounds like, a wider view of the ratio. Instead of the limited eyes of a narrowband, the wideband can be programmed for a much broader display, and more accurately, thanks to the 5v range. Since the wideband is a standalone thing, you see the ratio under all conditions.

What ever 'band' is used wont help detect boost leaks, at least not during closed loop operation. During closed loop operation, the front oxygen sensor is used as the primary feedback sensor for AFR correction. Now, since the ECU is looking at this, it always wants that 14.7:1 ratio so it will do whatever it can to keep it there by adjusting fuel. Hence why you cannot detect a boost leak.

If you were to look at the readings during WOT with a boost leak, then yes possibly. This is because you are now in open loop where the oxygen sensor is not being used to correct AFR. In open loop, the ECU collects data from other sensors such as the air flow, barometric pressure, and air temperature sensors (which makes up the MAF sensor), and coolant sensor (not 100% sure on all sensors used but at least those). So when all the qualifying sensors tells the ECU the overall air mass, the ECU will now decide how much fuel to inject. But with a boost leak, you're going to run rich since the ECU is not aware of the air leak.

 

[romeen]

cool...I think I might order an air/fuel gauge. I"d like to know if my car is running rich or if it's just a smelly exhaust leak. I'm assuming that most people with turbo cars have an air/fuel gauge for the main purpose of monitoring boost leak, right? rich fuel mix generally equals boost leak. I just don't know why one would buy a narrow band or a wide band. I don't understand the different (in newbie terms).

I saw the custom gauge cluster pods that hold a gauge in each corner. I love that. It looks nice and stock, so I might order one and put my boost gauge in one side and an air fuel in the other. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with these items on ebay. I want to make sure they actually fit well and aren't a huge PITA to modify to fit.

OBX 95-99 ECLIPSE GSX GST GAUGE POD CLUSTER BEZEL 52MM | eBay

95 96 97 98 99 EAGLE TALON DSM CLUSTER GAUGE POD DASH | eBay

i'm wondering which of the two look better and fit better. Anyone have either of these?

ps....this car is quickly going from cheap beater to pride and joy. Dammit cars are money pits..haha...

You should start a new thread since the topic has now completely changed from the original topic and thread title. The main reason for doing this is to make it easier to find relevant info when doing a search. If someone is searching thread titles for "wideband," this thread won't come up and some good info that might be very helpful to them will be overlooked (referring to the stuff that Nathan took the time to just post ).

You can ask one of the Mods to create a new thread with the relevant title that you want. If you prefer, I can ask them.

BTW, I'm using the instrument cluster bezel with the dual pods. I'll be happy to share my thoughts in the new thread.

 

[91rtstealth]

ah HA! I didn't know you guys started this for me. Thanks! So most people are telling me that a narrowband is a waste of time and money, however, isn't it better than nothing? I don't think I'm going to spend the money on a wide band sensor and a wide band gauge. At least not yet. It's a lot of money, especially for a car that's basically a toy that I bought to mess around with. I'd rather put the money into getting it in good working order and making it look a little better. Is a narrowband worth it? I'd like to get this bezel and I'd need to fill that other gauge pod with something useful. Oil pressure instead perhaps?

 

[NHerron]

If you ever modify the turbo, fuel, install SAFC etc, you need a wideband to see what the ratio is during WOT/open loop. For example, the car does not correct itself during WOT since the oxygen sensor is not being used, it relies on other sensors to calculate a rough estimate for fuel

You don't need one for a stock car, just don't do any heavy modifying with out a WB

 

[91rtstealth]

cool. Yeah I don't plan on doing anything real crazy but who knows. I'm probably just going to get it running good, get a manual boost controller and run 15-16 psi, get an exhaust, and make it pretty.

So, what gauge should I fill the other spot with if I get that bezel? Is the narrow band worth it at all or should I get oil pressure or something. I'm basically just interested in what you guys think is a useful gauge to have in these cars specifically.

Does anyone have any photos of those bezels above installed in their vehicles? I just want to know if they fit good, install easily, and look nice and stock.

 

[97gsxIA]

I would suggest boost,oilpress,wideband. I also have two spare pods holding batt. volt gauges, but those are just there to save space for EGT guage and a aftermarket coolant temp gauge in the near future. which im sure you'll never need with your goals.

I have a cluster similar to the ones in your link that fit perfectly (sorry no pics) and an a pillar cluster.

narrowbands are pointless especially when tuning.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Common three boost, oil, and wideband. top three.

 

[romeen]

I wouldn't bother with a narrow band gauge. If you just want it for tuning (no gauge) then you already have one. You just need a way of datalogging the front O2 sensor voltage. That is what was used to street tune my car back in 2001. So you can do it, but it's not as accurate as a wideband and there is less room for error.

As far as the dual gauge cluster bezel, one important thing to note is that the gauge pods are very shallow. Meaning that if the gauge is thick from front to back it will contact the clear plastic of the instrument cluster and you won't be able to push it all the way in (back into the hole). That's one reason why I chose a PLX gauge, because they are very thin. The more popular but thicker AEM might stick out a bit but doesn't seem to concern the few members who have posted about it. My Glowshift gauge sticks out a tiny bit but it honestly isn't noticeable.

Another difference I've seen between the various aftermarket bezels is the surface appearance. Some are shiny which, IMO, looks cheap and doesn't match the the plastic of your dash. Mine (and I believe most) are flat black which better matches your dash.

Also, all the ones I've seen are not as tall as the stock one so you end up with a gap below the bezel. But you really only see it when the steering wheel is adjusted low. Otherwise it's not very noticeable.

Additionally, the stock bezel uses two push in tabs at the bottom to secure it. The aftermarket ones have two holes for screws but there is nothing behind it to screw into. However, the two screws at the top are enough to keep it in place.

Overall, the stock one is MUCH MORE solid (noticeably weighs more) and well made. Nonetheless, I'm happy with mine because I'd rather keep my gauges as out of sight as possible from others.

I think that pretty much covers all of the important aspects.

So, what gauge should I fill the other spot with if I get that bezel? Is the narrow band worth it at all or should I get oil pressure or something. I'm basically just interested in what you guys think is a useful gauge to have in these cars specifically.

Oil pressure without a doubt.

Does anyone have any photos of those bezels above installed in their vehicles? I just want to know if they fit good, install easily, and look nice and stock.

I'll post some pics a little later.

 

[91rtstealth]

cool. I'll probably just go with an oil pressure gauge if I get that aftermarket bezel down the road. I'm assuming the stock one isn't very accurate as usual. And I actually have a glowshift gauge so if you are saying it only sticks out a little then no biggie. Glowshift actually has their own aftermarket bezels for these cars so I'm assuming their gauges should fit quite well in their bezel, but who knows.

I never heard of an Exhaust Gas Temp gauge. What can you gather from that?

 

[Turbotsiawd]

NO the stock oil pressure is extreamly inaccurate .
Basically it only shows the presence of oil pressure
Not it's psi.

 

[RamenPride]

cool. I'll probably just go with an oil pressure gauge if I get that aftermarket bezel down the road. I'm assuming the stock one isn't very accurate as usual. And I actually have a glowshift gauge so if you are saying it only sticks out a little then no biggie. Glowshift actually has their own aftermarket bezels for these cars so I'm assuming their gauges should fit quite well in their bezel, but who knows.

I never heard of an Exhaust Gas Temp gauge. What can you gather from that?

EGT gauges were popular before widebands became affordable. Basically, the exhaust would be hotter if you were running lean. Only problem was that your EGT's could also be high from running rich. They were used with narrowbands to give you a rough guesstimate to make sure pistons didn't melt

 

[91rtstealth]

I see....cool thanks. I'll look into the oil temp gauge. I really don't know what to look for when reading oil pressure so I'll have to look into that. I know high is bad and low is bad, but other than that it's new to me. haha