Advice for perm. rear Koni setting, or go w/ AGX in rear?

[JPGRL]

After a lot of reading and searching I'm most likely getting a DSS coil over kit in the next month or so, and I'm sold on the Koni's as well, except for the issue of having to remove the rear shock to adjust it... I'm either looking for feedback/advice for setting the rear Koni's permanently or I'm thinking about going with the KYB AGX in the rear since they are more easily adjustable. I've heard of a couple people running mismatched setups in front vs rear, anyone have opinions on this?

My main focus is autocross, but this is a daily driver as well. I'm not a wimp. I do expect a stiffer ride, but I also drive 40 miles a day on Chicago streets, so there is a limit to what I'm willing to put up with. Right now I actually get oversteer with my stock (13 year old!) suspension -I'd really like to keep that after I "fix" the suspension. And, yes, a rear swaybar is on the wish list.

Any helps is greatly appreciated!

 

[DG-FNR]

A properly-matched set of shocks should not make the ride of the car any nastier on the street than on the track. My full-bore race suspension (2G) with 900lb front springs rides as smoothly as any "pure" street car.

If you think about it, if the driver is being jarred around, then so is the car. And if the car is being jarred around, then it isn't sticking as well as it could be. A properly set up car should be a sweetheart to drive.

The only real exception is (oddly enough) a Stock class car, where, because you can't swap springs around, you sometimes fake it with shocks that are WAY too stiff. There's a net gain in grip and response, but not as good as if the springs were stiffer and the shocks matched.

As far as giving you a setting for your Konis.... that's pretty much impossible. While Konis are excellent shocks for the money - heads and shoulders above everything else that's easily found - they have some quirks. One of them is that "full hard" on two otherwise identical shocks almost NEVER match. Same with "full soft" or any other setting. The ONLY way to know what forces the shocks are providing is to dyno them.

That's why ATI provides a dyno plot with every shock we sell. You CANNOT just count turns and call it a day.

The "press to adjust" shocks are particularly nasty. They are a HUGE PITA (the OEM Viper shocks are like that, and the last set of those that I dynoed nearly found themselves flung across the shop) Part of the problem is that the "tang" that does the adjuster is only engaged in like the last 1/8" of the shock travel, and there's enough gas force in the shock to make it really easy to slip the tang and lose track of where you are. Personally, I don't consider those "adjustables" - they are "matchables" and once matched on the dyno, you never ever EVER touch them again.

DG

http://streetmodified.org/books.html
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[JPGRL]

What you said about drivability makes sense, and I guess that "Example of "Matching" Shocks" here: http://www.accuratetechnologies.com/performance/Default.aspx?tabid=139
proves what you said about the same settings not being equal on two "matching" shocks, but I don't see any 1G shocks for sale on ATI's website... Anyone else sell matched (dyno'd) shocks? How much more would you expect to pay? -I'm an autox newbie, so I'm not out there to win, I'm just having fun at this point. Perhaps by the time my driving necessitates perfectly matched shocks, I'll want to step up to something else, or would be willing to have them dyno'd then?

Still interested in others' opinions...

 

[DG-FNR]

but I don't see any 1G shocks for sale on ATI's website...

...yet...

It actually doesn't cost very much to have shocks dynoed. We charge $25 each for up to 10 pulls. We might wind up doing a small surcharge on the Koni "press to adjust" shocks, to reflect just how much of a PITA they are... but we're talking a couple bucks here, not hundreds per shock.

When discussing shock forces, there are really two questions:

1) Are the shocks forces I want appropriate to what the car wants?

2) Are the shocks actually producing these forces?

There are ways to derive ballpark solutions to #1. Not necessarily the absolutely perfectly optimised UberSetting, but at least in the right ballpark. Good enough for most people.

Once you have an idea of the answer to #1, there's no reason NOT to get the answer to #2. Nothing will drive you crazier than discovering that you THOUGHT your shocks were producing force n, but were really producing 3n or 4n (that happened to me) or were producing 1/2n on the left, and 2n on the right....

And there are degrees of matching as well. There's a ballpark match "as matched as these particular set of shocks and their adjusters will let us" and a *perfect* match. For reasonable values of "ballpark", I agree that there will be very little in the way of advantage to have a perfect match. But there is an advantage to knowing that you're as matched as you can get with your current equipment.

Why guess, when you can know?

DG

 

[JPGRL]

Like I said, I'm looking at purchasing the shocks within the next month, so I don't know if you'll have them soon enough... (?)

So, let's say I buy a set of Koni's elsewhere and send them to you for dyno'ing. I get the results... then what? If they're all off (or any of them are off), what do I do? Exchange them and keep testing until I find a matched set? Or pay to have it/them revalved? I doubt many people go through all that trouble, but most who have Koni's are happy with them.

Don't get me wrong, I want the best setup I can afford, I'm just new to this and don't know how often the Koni's are mismatched, and if they are off, what to do about it. -I'm also in a hurry because I'm currently hitting the bumpstops when braking hard. It's not safe to drive the way it is right now...

 

[mach1one]

If you're looking to spend that much, you might want to look into the hotbits kit as well.

http://www.motorsport-dist.com/

 

[JPGRL]

I was interested in the Hotbits kit, but I can't seem to find anyone who's got them to hear how they are. In fact, I can't even find a price for them! I've been through the 3 dealers (who have websites) here: http://www.motorsport-dist.com/dealers.htm and none of them have a price listed for the setup. I found one old post here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144313 that says there was a group buy price of $850 and that it was 30% less that retail, so if the kit's around $1100 and there is someone out there autocrossing on it (and they like them), I'd seriously consider it, but with no info and no pricing...

 

[DG-FNR]

If we have adaptors on hand - the dyno's native fitment is a 1/2" pin to a 1/2" pin, so we usually need to fabricate adaptors to fit oddball OEM fitments to the dyno - our turnaround time is a day or two. Adaptor fabrication can dake anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks, depending on how backed up the machine shop is and how complex the adaptor is.

We (obviously) have adaptors that fit 2Gs. We *might* be able to fit 1G shocks with our existing adaptors, but I won't know for sure until I have them in my hands.

OK, so you buy Konis, and you dyno them, and they don't match - now what?

Well, this is what I mean by the "Koni Lottery" There's going to be some variance; it's more of a question of "how much" and "can anything be done about it"?

Ideally, you'd buy your shocks from somebody who'd dyno them before shipping, and ideally they'd either have enough stock on hand, pre-dynoed, or there'd be a group buy going on, such that the shocks can get mixed and matched into the best possible matched sets BEFORE shipping - we'd do that, if somebody wanted to get a group buy going (we DO sell Konis straight off the shelf too, not just our fancy custom suspension kits)

But let's say you buy them from somebody else, send them to us, we dyno them, and they don't match - what's the next step?

The answer depends entirely on the nature and scale of the mismatch. Koni Sports (typically, but not always) are single-adjustable, rebound only. That means compression is what it is, and you have control over the rebound.

The only ways to change the compression is either to try another shock of the same part number, or perhaps send the shock back to Koni to have them try and tweak the valvestack (the only people who can revalve Koni Sports are Koni NA, Truechoice, and ProParts) It's probably cheaper to buy a new shock, to be honest.

BUT - so far, the compression-force mismatches I've seen haven't been horrible. Yes, ideally they'd be identical, but so far, no two Konis have been so wonky in compression that I wouldn't run them on a car. Sometimes "Perfect is the enemy of good enough", especially if you're just starting out.

On the rebound side, you have control of the forces via the adjuster, so if the shocks don't match, now you can do something about it.

BUT - the Koni adjusters are decidedly NOT linear, and the adjustment windows are often off by quite a bit. What that means is that, on a typical Koni Sport with 2.5 turns of adjustment, that the first 1/2 turn often has 50% of the adjustment range in it, and the last turn or so has maybe 10%. Furthermore, "Full Hard" and "Full Soft" rarely line up.

I have had Konis that matched PERFECTLY, with one one "Full Hard" and the other on "Full Soft". Same part number.

Not all of them are that bad. In fact, the 2G DSM shocks we've been selling have been well above the Koni average in terms of quality control. And I don't think I've seen a Koni yet where they couldn't be made to match in rebound to the level of "good enough" - the trick is deteminining where that setting lies in their adjustment range.

So far, the ONLY shocks that do EXACTLY what you expect them to do when you fiddle with the adjusters are Penskes. There's a reason why they cost so much....

Incidently, all this funkyness with adjusters is a reason why we do a lot of Bilsteins for people. A Bilstein has a super-high-quality valvestack - easily the equal of a Penske - and because everything Bilstein makes is interchangeable, there's huge economies of scale and the parts are super cheap. When I build a set of Bilsteins, they match.

The downside? No knobs. If you want to change a Bisltein, you need to revalve it. Happily, they come apart so easily that almost anybody can do the rebuild (although its better to have a dyno handy to verify that nothing went wrong)

But we've found that it is MUCH better to have a non-adjustable shock with a "ballpark" valving in it, than to have an adjustable shock whose adjustment range never gets near the ballpark (like a JIC or Tein)

In your case, with you just starting out and all, what dynoing will do for you is let you see that your shocks are in the ballpark (as much as is possible given the adjustment range and variability of your specific shocks) and matched to each other (again, as best possible given the quirks of your specific shocks) I wouldn't waste much time and money trying to get an *exact* match - but if the mismatch is REALLY extreme, I might consider buying a third shock to see if the situation couldn't be improved.

If you don't have them dynoed, then you have no idea what you are putting on your car. They might be perfect. But you also might have one of those wonky oddballs such that one of them is super stiff or super soft - and that WILL cause you heartache later on. Trust me. Been there, did that.

DG

 

[mach1one]

I was interested in the Hotbits kit, but I can't seem to find anyone who's got them to hear how they are. In fact, I can't even find a price for them! I've been through the 3 dealers (who have websites) here: http://www.motorsport-dist.com/dealers.htm and none of them have a price listed for the setup. I found one old post here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144313 that says there was a group buy price of $850 and that it was 30% less that retail, so if the kit's around $1100 and there is someone out there autocrossing on it (and they like them), I'd seriously consider it, but with no info and no pricing...

Just call. Pieter @ motorsport is very knowledgable about the setup, as he's been rallying with it for the past three years. I had quite a few phone calls with him before I ordered. The group buy price is around 850$. I ordered them from the PA dealer so I didn't have to pay 200$ extra in shipping, as they ate the overseas part.

They should be here middle of the month, and I'll have a review shortly after.

 

[LONEWOLF01]

i am not a fan of adjustable shocks but by what you saying should i even bother or just get some non adjustable kyb's? pm me your price of konis for the 1g dsm eagle talon tsi 1990

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Agree with previous post. I thought I wanted KYB AGXs and Eibach springs, or Ground Controls. But the more I read about suspension in this forum, the more I became and started (well, not literally). Im wanting a setup I can use for drag and maybe road race, or something to give me room for growth, as my car will be my daily driver for a while as well I'm really lost as to whats the best, affordable ( if you can put those two words together in the same sentence )
suspension setup to go with. PM me if you have any good ideas for me. I'd really appreciate it and so will your reputation

 

[LONEWOLF01]

after reading all that i may just get some Bislteins or konis i told some of my friends about what you are talking about "adjustable suspension" all i want is a good shock to go with the eibach sportlines or maybe the hr springs. pm me with the pricieng on the Bislteins.

would'nt the spring play a important roll in the "match" of shocks rebound and compresion?

 

[ECTurboDSM]

As far as I know, there is no bolt on Bilstein for the 1G.

 

[DG-FNR]

Yet.

DG

 

[khanlon]

Yet.

DG

Could you provide a little more information on this?

-Complete kit w/ perches and upper mounts or just shocks and struts?
-Timeline, will these be available for this season or next?
-Price targets/estimates?
-Externally adjustable?

Thanks,

-Keith

 

[jtmcinder]

Yes, he can provide it in a PM (which makes me wonder why you didn't PM him in the first place) or he can provide it in the vendors' forum. But he cannot post a product announcement or price in a TECHNICAL forum, so please stop asking him to. He has a hard enough time following the rules as it is.

All the organizers of this site ask is that you read a simple set of rules and follow them. In return, we answer questions and help to prevent mistakes. It's a fair trade. If you don't like the deal, other sandboxes beckon.

- Jtoby

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Yes please address all product availability and pricing questions in private. We understand everyone is interested but we must follow the policies of the site.