Abnormal no start problem - Thinking starter issue

[Redslayer]

Tonight when I went to leave the beach, my car wouldn't turn over at all. No click, no nothing. No reaction to the key being turned. I turned my headlights on, and they didn't seem any more dim than they usually are when the car is running.

So we tried to push start it (these cars are surprisingly heavy btw). And we didn't have enough room. But after the first attempt, it started. Albeit slower than usual, normally.

About 20 minutes later I had to shut it down because I needed food. When I went to start it, it cranked really slow, almost like the battery was low. But fired, and ran fine after that. I then drove it an hour and a half home. (Which almost turned bad when a child ran into the highway...) it ran perfectly fine. When I got home I shut it off and immediately tried to restart it, and it fired no problem.

So tomorrow I have to start trying to sort this out. Figured I'd post here incase anyone has any ideas. I'll be checking the battery first, and if it checks out, I'm going to replace the starter. But if it then continues to have an issue, then that's where I'll need some help and ideas. Wish me luck, and throw out some ideas! thanks.

 

[Utz_3]

Sounds to me like a bad/uncharged battery. If i were you, i'd take the battery to an autoparts and have it tested or drive the car there, if it starts, so you can also get your alternator tested. I'm almost positive that the battery is the culprit though. Good luck

 

[luv2rallye]

Before replacing starter test battery and clean/tighten battery connections.

 

[steve]

Do you have a voltmeter? If not get one and measure the voltage before you try starting it, during, and once the engine is running.

You should see 12.6v at rest, not below 10v cranking, and 13.8v-14.4v when running.

The cable and terminals should be free of any corrosion. Pull them and make sure both are clean and bright then reattach and tighten. The corrosion protection rings you put between the battery and cable really work. If you don't have them pick some up at the auto parts store.

 

[Redslayer]

Checked the battery this morning with a volt meter before doing anything, it was sitting at 12.4. Car started really weak, but again ran fine after it started (only turned over may 4 times before it fired as well). Checked it while it was running Volts were around 14.3.

I'm pretty sure I have another starter at my dads house, so I am going to go over there and check in a bit. Battery terminals are clean, no corrosion at all. But will double check everything.

 

[Redslayer]

And to be fair, it's the same starter that's been on the car for at the very least the 7 years I've had the car. And I've had to use the starter to move the car in the past ... So I wouldn't be all that surprised if it finally went.

 

[steve]

Thanks for the data. Cranking voltage would have validated the battery condition under load but if you have a spare starter swapping it will give you a chance to make sure the power connection and mounting for the grounds on the replacement are also clean and tight.

 

[Redslayer]

Alright, so after the initial start, it went to a single click, no start. So I cleaned the battery terminals up to make sure that wasn't it. And it didn't change at all. Re-tested battery voltage and it was at 12.5 So I swapped in the other starter I had just to see if it would work, and nothing changed. just a single click, and then nothing. Battery still reading 12.5.


Later when my work truck gets back here (if it gets back early enough), I'll have to take it to go and get the battery tested. Maybe it's a CCA problem.

Actually I'll take the starter too.

 

[pauleyman]

This doesnt aound abnormal at all. Just sounds like normal routine maintenance stuff. Bad battery or connections ( which you have already ruled out) curious why you went after the starter first. Age doesnt do it for me. Battery is so accessible and easy to test.

 

[Redslayer]

This doesnt aound abnormal at all. Just sounds like normal routine maintenance stuff. Bad battery or connections ( which you have already ruled out) curious why you went after the starter first. Age doesnt do it for me. Battery is so accessible and easy to test.

Because the car ran perfect, and all the lights and everything worked fine when the car was off. No signs of a dead battery outside of the car not starting. And then the car started after an attempted bump start. So it seemed like a weak or stuck starter, over a batter, since a failed attempt at a bump start wouldn't charge the battery any.

Plus it was 2 am, and everything is abnormal at 2 am o.o

 

[pauleyman]

Lights are a load but not huge. Batteries can show good voltage but bad amperage. you probably already have your answer.

 

[Redslayer]

Lights are a load but not huge. Batteries can show good voltage but bad amperage. you probably already have your answer.

Gonna be a couple hours yet before I'll get over to Auto zone to get them to test it. I'm taking both starters, and the battery. Hopefully the battery fails ... The battery is only a few months old. So it'll be free to replace.

 

[Redslayer]

Both Starters, and the battery all passed the tests at Autozone.

 

[mitsumike0]

I had a similiar issue on my 3g. Car would turn on and sometimes not even click or anything. I changed the starter relay which actually helped quite a bit.

 

[luv2rallye]

Ok then, assuming the starter solenoid (on the starter) is clicking, you now need to measure voltages WHILE CRANKING (not cranking voltage means nothing). The battery voltage (across the posts, not the battery terminals) while cranking must be > 10.0V if you have a good battery.

If so, then measure the voltage across the battery terminals while cranking - should be > 10.0v if terminal connections are good.

If so, measure the voltages across the starter (at the starter) while cranking - should be > 9.6v. If so, your starter is bad (assuming it doesn't turn the engine over). If not, either your starter is bad or the battery cables to the starter and ground are bad. To tell if it's one of the cables, measure the voltage drop from one end of a cable to the other end while cranking - should be < 0.5v. If not, replace the cable. Note the negative cable should connect to a starter mounting bolt (less resistance) - not just to the block or frame.

Info: The starter draws between 50-100 amps and needs 9.6v minimum to operate. That means total cables and connections can have only 0.03 ohms resistance for 100A (0.06 ohms for 50A). This is why connections and cables are so critical to be clean and tight to operate the starter (higher current causes higher voltage drop) where lights and other stuff may still work (lower current cause lower voltage drop).

 

[andyhtd05]

see how much voltage you're getting to the starter solenoid, i think its a black/yellow wire, had this problem before ended up being a broken wire near the anti-theft relay from an aftermarket remote start system. get a wiring diagram to start. if you have anything less than 12v to the solenoid, check relays, connections, and grounds. if you have 12v suspect the starter has a bad spot, depending on where it stops is whether or not it'll start back up the next time, sometimes those things don't show up during a bench test

 

[JKart]

A stress test would surely help in finding the problem. In my idea it could be the battery or loose terminals. Lastly would be the starter.

 

[luv2rallye]

see how much voltage you're getting to the starter solenoid, i think its a black/yellow wire

+1. Yes I agree. Check starter solenoid voltage (on the starter) first before doing my step 15 stuff.

 

[Redslayer]

Unfortunately it's going to have to wait til next week, as I'm going to be out of town the rest of this week and this weekend. But after I get a chance to mess with it some more, I'll be sure to update. I bought some new wire and connectors, plan on replacing the ground from the batt to the car, and possibly the ground to the starter just to be sure. Since the wires are 20 years old .

 

[TopSpeedCJ]

That would be a bad battery.

 

[IdleSurge]

Try unplugging your clutch switch and then starting the car but make sure its in neutral because after you unplug the clutch switch you will be able to start the car without having to press down on your clutch.

 

[Redslayer]

Try unplugging your clutch switch and then starting the car but make sure its in neutral because after you unplug the clutch switch you will be able to start the car without having to press down on your clutch.

It's started without the clutch since the day I got it many years ago.

I just tried to mess with it a little bit today, still the same result. I tried rocking the car, and the flywheel was moving so it at least doesn't seem like the engine locked. I don't have anyone to help me, so I can't turn the key and check volts at the same time. But I can hear the starter engage, but just not turn the engine over. Literally like a dead batt would. But the batt isn't dead. (to make sure it's clear, it 'clicks' one time as it engages, and then does nothing)

This is incredibly frustrating during a time where I'm already over stretched. I don't have much patience for this kind of BS. x.x

 

[Redslayer]

Ok so update. I jumped it today with an F350 diesel, and it fired right up. So I took the batt back, and it passed all test including CCA. Replaced it anyway. Put the batt in, and it started NP. Drove it about 2 miles and parked. And right back to no start. But this time I went to check the battery terminals, and the positive one was so hot it burned my hand.

So what the heck could cause that? That can't be right.

Edit ::: Ok, so I searched around the internet for a bit, and "a short" came up as a cause numerous times. So I went out and started examining the wires. On a long shot, I cut into the main power wire by the terminal. And while the terminal was good, the wire had corroded and started to fray inside the coating where I couldn't see. I cut an inch and a half off before I found good wire (thankfully that was it, any shorter and I was in trouble) and cleaned everything again and reconnected. Car seems fine now. Started 4 times. Once for a test run, and 3 more times right after.

 

[luv2rallye]

Must have a massive short. http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/finding-a-short-partial-short-or-battery-drain.179481/#post-1496998

 

[Redslayer]

Must have a massive short. http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/finding-a-short-partial-short-or-battery-drain.179481/#post-1496998

I'm hoping not. Going to be doing some further testing tonight when it gets cooler outside. It appears that cutting away the old disintegrating wire has solved it. But I'll find out for sure later.

I haven't blown any fuses at all either.