A warranty that Voids it self?

[hypergenesis]

So this is continuing from my previous thread in regards to an engine I had sent to be built at a local shop.

Read if you like

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/452135-get-lube-ready-quote.html

regardless this is the point of the thread

Warranty

*Customer provided used engine parts:Engine Block,Bare Cylinder Head,Cylinder head internals,Crankshaft,Oil Pump, Connecting
Rods,Pistons,Camsafts,Oil Pan
No warranty provided on used parts
*Custom Work requested by customer:Balance Shaft Delete,Oil Galley Porting
No warranty provided on "Custom" Labor or Parts.
*Custom Work Requested by customer has rendered Cylinder Head "custom" and is not covered by warranty
Custom oil galley porting
*6 month/60,000 miles Warranty provided on Short Block Assembly.
If engine failure Occurs due to Improper Engine installation,Timming Componet Improper Assembly or Customer Installed aftermarket
part and/or Tune.Warranty is Void

also keep in mind half the head was replaced with new parts, valves, valve guides, valve stem seals, springs, retainers. Only thing used is the cams and rockers and the head itself. Yet again bad communication on the shops part since I have asked for a list of everything I brought to them for the past 5 months. ( I have it of course but they don't)

My understanding of this is that its a loop hole that ends up with nothing being covered. Along with this , its for a 6 bolt in a 2g so a tune is going to be a requirement to some degree especially for 2g pistons on 1g rods.

This was their revised warranty after going in to talk to them 3 times.
Also sorry since this is the second thread in regards to this in the past few weeks its just im at a loss between fixing it between the shop or going to the BAR, I figure someone here might have some better insight towards the matter.

Along with this if they installed the BSE incorrectly or ported the oil galley for BogusSVO's Oil Port mod #1 too much then they are covered and im out of luck correct?

Thanks as always to a great community

Armin
(PS help me I just want to have my car running its been sitting for a year, im stuck driving a 3 cylinder geo metro I built...imagine the slowness..

 

[BogusSVO]

I hate to say this at this point. Did they ream out the head bolt holes of the 2g head so the 6 bolt head studs and have clearance?

Sounds like they are used to dealing with stock builds.

Or maybe a cam and intake on a SBC....

Oil port Mod 1 is simple, and any halfway dencent machinst should be able to pick up on what it is for.

The BSE.... that could void the whole build.... "You spun a rod bearing beacuse you did a BSE, and the vibrations shook the rod"

 

[evileagleawd]

The warranty from machine shops are usually a joke. But do you blame them most people get their car running and turn the boost up out of pure ignorance. If you want a warranty build the engine your self. Invest your money in the proper tools to check all your specifications. Then at the end of the day the only one to blame can be your self. I understand the average person does not have the equipment to perform engine machine work. But the work can still be checked. Recently I had a machine shop do a 3 angle valve job for me. I asked the machine shop what the valve spring pressure measured when I picked it up. He looked at me like I had two heads. I paid him then went home took the hole head apart checked his work. Found he reused the valve seals. Replaced them my self purchased a valve spring tester and reassembled the head my self.
Just hoping someone else did the work right is not such a good idea. Even if a machine shop warrantied the engine 100%, they are only going to warranty their work. They are not going to reimburse you for your time or material that might be needed to get the engine right again. Such as gaskets, oil, and hardware. Not sure this helps much but I live under one motto if you want it done right do it your self!

 

[BogusSVO]

Depends on the shop, better ones will "work with you" if there is an issue.

Now if an engine failed, and you had it built at a decent shop, leave it together, from VC to oil pan.
The teardown will tell alot.

If it failed, beacuse you leaned the tune out too far and burnt a hole in the top of a piston... The shops build did not cause that.

But if you get rod knock in 10 miles, into the brake in... and they pull it apart and see wher #2 rod cap is on backwards... They should fix it.

There is just so much that can go wrong and so many ways.. the shop has to cover there back side.

Here is a good one.... Tune is good, engine is fine. You are driving along in traffic, and a chunk of rebar falls of the truck in front of you, you go over it and it punches a hole in the oil pan, all the oil dumps out, and the crank and bearings get smoked by the time you get pulled over.

Who eats the repair on thet? Not the shops fault....

Evil.... I would have been pissed, take a head in and they use the old seals. You can not remove the old seals without distroying them.

Are you sure they even cut the seat???

 

[hypergenesis]

I hate to say this at this point. Did they ream out the head bolt holes of the 2g head so the 6 bolt head studs and have clearance?

Sounds like they are used to dealing with stock builds.

Or maybe a cam and intake on a SBC....

Oil port Mod 1 is simple, and any halfway dencent machinst should be able to pick up on what it is for.

The BSE.... that could void the whole build.... "You spun a rod bearing beacuse you did a BSE, and the vibrations shook the rod"

It is a 1g head on a 1g block using 2g pistons on 1g rods.

And thats understandable but does the warranty not say if its even tuned the warranty is invalid? or am I looking too much into this, Also I do understand your perspective and that makes complete sense but basically what they told me in person and on paper is that

Since its used parts it might not start. But honestly I thought the whole point of having an engine rebuilt is to see what parts are still within clearance. Even if its a whole used engine, you replace all the seals and little stuff and re-use everything else as long as its within spec, cleaned, and in good shape. If everything is assembled correctly and within clearances the engine should start no ifs and's or but's correct?(assuming it has to do directly with the mechanical functions regarding to the engine, not spark, etc issues.)

 

[bullettdsm]

The warranty from machine shops are usually a joke. But do you blame them most people get their car running and turn the boost up out of pure ignorance.

^This and this;

Depends on the shop, better ones will "work with you" if there is an issue.

Oh how we have a problem with this at my buddy's shop. The amount of work he's eaten as a "courtesy" to his customers (due to their ignorance or just ineptness) is "yucky" (< highly technical term ).

Here's the way it goes; pretty much any race/stock-altered build that you have, the company can get out of their obligation in their warranty. There are so many loophole avenues to work with (the only one that is relatively "ironclad" for you would be if they get all the parts and do the build and do the install and do the tune.....basically they have full control of everything).

THAT is the reason you need to do your homework and use a TRUSTED machine shop. (I know this may not help you now, just posting this up for others). What you want is a machine shop that will be reasonble (most good shops are) and work with you. A good shop will diagnose the problem and give you their reasoning to the failure.....and then work from there. If they feel its an obvious "their fault" kind of thing, then a good shop won't give you a hard time and they will fix it. If its a gray area thing, then they will generally work with you (usually that's a no labor situation, maybe you get parts or we'll order parts and hit you up for cost. Or possibly the shop won't take responsibility for the failure but fix it anyway). If its an obvious user problem (oh say, a hole in the piston from a bad tune) the shop would be under no expectation to eat that and it would be a "kindness of the heart" kind of thing to help you.

So warranties are only as good as the company that provides them. You do have recourse/leverage. You can step up to DMV, BBB or small claims court, but that brings with it other inherent problems (must have a good case, lots of extra time spent, working with the shop becomes harder etc). /end personal rant

In reading through your other thread, you need to consider this:

Even if you brought it to court now I am fairly confident that you wouldn't win. Regardless of whether or not you received an estimate before hand you already signed for the motor AFTER the work was complete. You were not forced to sign anything, you chose too. If you were that worried about it you should have received everything in writing in the first place, and more importantly you should have taken legal action before you signed for the completion of work.
Yes 500 is a lot of money but unless you want to drag this out way longer than it needs to be I would just take this as a lesson learned. You made a mistake, everyone does. So just learn from it and never make the same mistake twice.

Can you get a lawyer and work this? Sure you can, but you need to think about if its worth your time and effort, or should you just move on.

But I do find this interesting;

Let me see if I understand this. You have the engine, but havent paid anything yet. So.... wheres the problem? Maybe I misread something, but you could just cancel the card?

Also, Im pretty sure anything you buy with a VISA automaticly has a warranty through VISA. You could call them and double check. While on the phone with them you could file a complaint against the business through VISA, I know from experience, this works wonders.

If you paid through visa, your card company can absolutely dispute the cost and hold (as in not pay) their money. Then you may have a little leverage. I have used this tactic before.

MB

 

[aajj1987]

90 percent of shops have a loop hole in there stuff. Like at firestone you get a new manager that is by the books and he wont honor your lifetime warranty if you modified the suspension. If you touch anything besides fluids under the hood they would void your warranty. I mean think about it... if you did your job right whatever it may be and someone says you didn't and they want it fixed for free that's no bueno. Most of the work I do for my customers the work order states unless my parts receipts are attached to invoices. no warranty is offered on labor or parts. Bring used parts where I cant hold my local parts stores accountable for the labor should something fail im not going to warranty any work .

 

[boost97gst]

The BEST warranty you can hope for when building a 4g63 is simply the "handshake" warranty. Just go to a shop that has a good rep and an honest owner that you can speak with eye to eye and get a feel for him. I had an "implied" warranty on mine and got rod knock after 300 miles. The guy was solid, took it back, fixed his mistake by replacing the crank and put new bearings in.

 

[H@xtGSX]

This is why I do all my own work... But, I realize that isn't an option for most people. That said though, there is no machinist I know that would warranty unconventional performance modifications. There is just too many things that could go wrong. If it was something obviously the machinist's fault, like poorly clearanced bearings, then most honest guys will fix it because they don't want to have a shitty reputation and they take pride in producing quality work. I know it gives me a huge sense of satisfaction to do top notch work and have it recognized as such... But when something goes wrong, and the machinist decides to eat the cost of the fix, you have to understand that it is a lot of money they are sacrificing for their reputation. Some guys won't or can't make that sacrifice, especially if their margins are already too tight... It is best to just work with them nicely, or take it to someone else. I always recommend you LOOK at the shop where the machine work is done. Organized and clean, well lit, and has sufficient floor space to move around comfortably is what you want to see. If its a dingy cave that is dirty as hell and in a building slightly larger than a Tuf-Shed, chances are they don't pay the highest attention to detail. In a machine shop, appearance says a lot about practice.

 

[phunny]

There are enough shops that build 4G63's that this issue anymore. Take it as a learning experience and move on.

As far as someone saying "build it yourself", again bad idea.

 

[Pipnorcali]

Should have taken it to a pro like RRE and get it right the first time

 

[boost97gst]

^^ agreed, ive decided not to chance it with any local machinists anymore. That simple mistake cost me almost 800 and 2 months down time. JAM is getting my business and they will get it right the first time. No need to gamble with these 4g's

 

[hypergenesis]

Honestly if the tune is messed I can understand the blame and im not the type of person to try to scam someone else out of their money based on something that would clearly be a tuning issue.

Also I figured it would have been a trusted shop due to the fact that the owner was good friends with my neighbor and was actually over at my house before his shop opened checking out DSMLINK and how the tuning system was so hes seen how long I have been working on it I thought he would have atleast had a decent amount of business etiquette though.

I was planning on sending the motor to RRE or FFTech to be built but the shop guarentted it would have been cheaper, He obviously lied.

The card has already been cancelled but yet again im not trying to get out of paying for this engine, that is not my intention at all and I worked for everything I put on my car I don't want to weasel my way out of something just because my cards cancelled.


Yet again theres just more problems arising now,

From the invoice I received and the parts I got back along with the quote and the machinist receipt it doesn't look like he even installed any of my new parts and just re-used everything in the head. So now I need to figure out what happened to 400$ worth of head internals that I had given him. Yet again I ASKED HIM IN WRITING for lists of all of the parts I brought in multiple times. I just really didn't think he would be this dirty.

Also thanks for all the feedback both positive and negative, I know I have a lot of learning to do and this is just another thing to learn from honestly.

Armin

Should have taken it to a pro like RRE and get it right the first time

Yessir your right

There are enough shops that build 4G63's that this issue anymore. Take it as a learning experience and move on.

As far as someone saying "build it yourself", again bad idea.

I agree initially I was going to buy a short block and head from one of our great DSM vendors over on the east coast and have it shipped my way, then I had one of these moments that turned into one of these

 

[phunny]

Always does

 

[n0de]

If you look at the engine with human eyes then the warranty is void. Just sayin'

On a serious note, if he has stolen parts from you then you need to take pictures of the parts he replaced them with right away. Grab the receipts/pictures/box's from the parts you purchased to go into the head, also look at the invoice you signed to see if it makes mention of any of those parts and contact and attorney.

Worst case scenario, if you already have the motor and have not paid him then you already have a leg up on him since the parts you are missing are worth $400 and the engine rebuild costs way more.

Idea, if he will not take the time to give you everything in writing that you are looking to get, then you should just write out what you need on paper and leave a space for him to sign it. This way he doesn't have to take the time out to do it and you can write what you need on there.

 

[aajj1987]

when I have work done somewhere I always ask for old parts back! I dispose of it all myself. also good way to check integrity. I like to take small jobs to shops just to check some work .

 

[hypergenesis]

If you look at the engine with human eyes then the warranty is void. Just sayin'

On a serious note, if he has stolen parts from you then you need to take pictures of the parts he replaced them with right away. Grab the receipts/pictures/box's from the parts you purchased to go into the head, also look at the invoice you signed to see if it makes mention of any of those parts and contact and attorney.

Worst case scenario, if you already have the motor and have not paid him then you already have a leg up on him since the parts you are missing are worth $400 and the engine rebuild costs way more.

Idea, if he will not take the time to give you everything in writing that you are looking to get, then you should just write out what you need on paper and leave a space for him to sign it. This way he doesn't have to take the time out to do it and you can write what you need on there.

Just to add in light of recent things

lso in recent discovery theres some new news pertaining to this.

1. The 3rd revised invoice that I now have states that all the parts in the head were used, states the same thing in the warranty, and only states that I brought the head crank block rods and pistons to the shop but I also brought new valves, valve guides, and valve stem seals as well as springs and retainers. The invoice says that he gave back all the used parts but everything I gave him to replace I never received back and the invoice states nothing of the parts. I have receipts for them though and dates dropped off. I also have him stating that the invoice is 100% correct to their shops information. *New part in writting

2. After inspection of the engine I found ridiculous amounts of metal shavings all throughout the motor that they told me was ready to run,

They charged me for a bore on the block but the measurement says STD+.003 which is a hone job unless I am mistaken.

3. One of the head studs sits about 1/8" higher than the rest, I am assuming due to the fact that they didn't clear the holes for the headstud like BogusSVO mentioned before.

4. The machinist receipt shows a charge for 400$ just to install valve guides, this seemed really fishy.

Ive been having more and more fellow gear heads and shop owners from different areas who have spare time come check the motor out, theres a few friendly people still in the 209 xD, they are all astonished by how poorly a lot of its put together. They didn't even bother cleaning the oil pump they just threw it back on.

 

[n0de]

Just to add in light of recent things

lso in recent discovery theres some new news pertaining to this.

1. The 3rd revised invoice that I now have states that all the parts in the head were used, states the same thing in the warranty, and only states that I brought the head crank block rods and pistons to the shop but I also brought new valves, valve guides, and valve stem seals as well as springs and retainers. The invoice says that he gave back all the used parts but everything I gave him to replace I never received back and the invoice states nothing of the parts. I have receipts for them though and dates dropped off. I also have him stating that the invoice is 100% correct to their shops information. *New part in writting

2. After inspection of the engine I found ridiculous amounts of metal shavings all throughout the motor that they told me was ready to run,

They charged me for a bore on the block but the measurement says STD+.003 which is a hone job unless I am mistaken.

3. One of the head studs sits about 1/8" higher than the rest, I am assuming due to the fact that they didn't clear the holes for the headstud like BogusSVO mentioned before.

4. The machinist receipt shows a charge for 400$ just to install valve guides, this seemed really fishy.

Ive been having more and more fellow gear heads and shop owners from different areas who have spare time come check the motor out, theres a few friendly people still in the 209 xD, they are all astonished by how poorly a lot of its put together. They didn't even bother cleaning the oil pump they just threw it back on.

That all sucks. I've only ever had an issue with a shop one time in my life. Had a bunch of crazy charges added to my invoice, one of which was a $300 charge for a "street tune" but the car didn't even run.

Sounds like you could avoid a headache next time if you build it yourself.

 

[BogusSVO]

Just to add in light of recent things

lso in recent discovery theres some new news pertaining to this.

1. The 3rd revised invoice that I now have states that all the parts in the head were used, states the same thing in the warranty, and only states that I brought the head crank block rods and pistons to the shop but I also brought new valves, valve guides, and valve stem seals as well as springs and retainers. The invoice says that he gave back all the used parts but everything I gave him to replace I never received back and the invoice states nothing of the parts. I have receipts for them though and dates dropped off. I also have him stating that the invoice is 100% correct to their shops information. *New part in writting

2. After inspection of the engine I found ridiculous amounts of metal shavings all throughout the motor that they told me was ready to run,

They charged me for a bore on the block but the measurement says STD+.003 which is a hone job unless I am mistaken.

3. One of the head studs sits about 1/8" higher than the rest, I am assuming due to the fact that they didn't clear the holes for the headstud like BogusSVO mentioned before.

4. The machinist receipt shows a charge for 400$ just to install valve guides, this seemed really fishy.

Ive been having more and more fellow gear heads and shop owners from different areas who have spare time come check the motor out, theres a few friendly people still in the 209 xD, they are all astonished by how poorly a lot of its put together. They didn't even bother cleaning the oil pump they just threw it back on.

Damn, I really must be undercharging to install guides!
I hope that is just a fat finger on the keyboard
In my part of the country, it is about $5-$6 to R&R a guide, a little more if they are bronze guides and need to be honed on the ID.

Yes, STD + .003 would be a hone.

Whan a block is bored, most leave .003-.005 to hone out so the PTW is set.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

I would dispute the charges with VISA. You have a contract that you paid him to rebuild the engine in a reliable condition (invoice). Metal shavings in the engine/oil galleries is not a reliable engine. Because of this you have to get your engine rebuilt again. Your damages are the original price of his build. If you have an invoice from a second machine shop this should be enough for VISA to refund your charges from the first one.

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

Indeed, if you have photographed results and the paperwork of the services rendered, either dispute it with visa or take it to small claims if this was that that shady and there is no reasonable doubt this is on the machinist

 

[laserspeeddemon]

He hasn't ACTUALLY paid, so he doesn't need to talk them to small claims court. They would have to take HIM to small claims court.

 

[hypergenesis]

Thing I am confused about is do I need to jump the gun and inform Visa about the services, nothings been charged? The card that was given to him isn't even active anymore due to how much shady work and things have been going on as soon as I got the invoice.

Also another thing I am curious about is how no one has mentioned the BAR?
I was close to filing my case with them as well with my 25-30 Pages of evidence but im curious why not many give this an option. Any reason?

Thanks for the quick feedback to this new information from all of you it gives me hope from others who have a better idea.

Armin

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Oh then you're good bro. Sit back and wait for him to sue you (if he ever does). He does have a leg up though since you signed the paper but you can argue that the improper work required you to redo all the work and that you are still missing parts that you delivered to him.

In addition you could cite the laws that you cited before.

 

[hypergenesis]

Awesome,

Just an update he SAYS he has a filed a police report and is taking legal action but honestly im not too worried at the end of the day. I am not to worried since that was his response after I asked him about all the missing parts. I just found it funny how he said I stole the engine yet all the parts are mine. Haha

Will be updated with more information regarding this whole long process.