91 Trans in 90' Talon. No 1st?

[XiKeiyaZI]

Yes, i've read. >> But to each his own... and I like to get specifics.

So my 90' Trans was shot.. and I drove to Kansas City which is Roughly 6 hours away to pick up a 91 Trans and TCase off a pretty solid guy here from Tuners. He was willing to hand write an agreement that the trans was in perfect working order and the things he'd be willing to do if it was bad.. so yeah. I bought it.

Anyway... I recently got the car running.. and everything is perfect.. but I don't have first gear. I have EVERY other Gear.. and 1st would just lighly grind so I figured "Damn...1st is gone. "

I contact the guy, whom was stumped as the trans was a rebuilt one, and he gave me a few ideas as to what it may be. I Did discover that my Master Cyl was loose so I adjusted it a bit and got the full travel and disengagement of my pedal back! ;D there's a plus.

Anyway, I was messing around yesterday and disconnected the cables at the trans and Slammed it into first by hand.. Got in, Started it.. and OH MY GOD, IT MOVED. I tried this again with the car running and first is THERE. I reattached the cables and couldn't get first. I then adjusted them a little at the shifter base and slammed it into first.. and I was able to get first to catch Twice.. All while running and shifting from neutral.

I knew that when I put the trans in the car that I needed a matching TCase and bracket for the shifters. I have the 90' Shifter assembly and 90' Cables in... and I don't have a 91+ shifter assembly. =/ I DO have a set of N/T 92 Shifter Cables... and it only has one adjustment screw, the other line is solid... just incase I need to change cables and this one works.

Like, seriously... the cables are MAYBE a 1/4 in' out of adjustment but I have them maxed out. Is there anything I can do to make the existing 90' Cables+Shifter assembly work, or what do I have to do? I can LIVE with having 2-5 + Rev... but I REALLY want my 1st gear back.

Any help would be lovely. Thank you.

 

[toofast82]

you need to use the 91-94 cables and shifter. It doesn't matter if its from n/t or turbo though.
I believe you can use the 90 cables if you swap the shift arms from your 90 tranny onto the 91. That would entail taking the trans apart,

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

you need to use the 91-94 cables and shifter. It doesn't matter if its from n/t or turbo though.
I believe you can use the 90 cables if you swap the shift arms from your 90 tranny onto the 91. That would entail taking the trans apart,

I was just about to add that to the information above.. about taking the shift levers at the Trans and changing them with those on my old 90' Trans.. -.-;; And I don't want to even CHANCE taking a transmission apart.

Is there ANY way that I can keep the 90' shifter assembly and just trade out cables? That was one of the 3 things that my 91' Parts car didn't come with.. was the shifter assembly.. -.-;; Otherwise I have to Find a shifter assembly.. and wait...

 

[iwillnotbleed]

With what you have set up, I would think you need a little more throw or movement from at least one of your cables. Most likely the cable for the left to right movement at your shifter. And if I remember right that's the cable that is shorter on the '90 models.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

With what you have set up, I would think you need a little more throw or movement from at least one of your cables. Most likely the cable for the left to right movement at your shifter. And if I remember right that's the cable that is shorter on the '90 models.

That sounds about right. When I was having my friend move the shifter to 1st yesterday, I would remove the cables at the trans, and see how close it was to locking in first, and it'd always lock when I moved the Up and Down Pivot Arm (Left and right at the shifter) and then pushed backwards on gear select (forward on the shifter)

So I think I've got the Forward and back fixed.. I modded the shifter a tad bit to allow more back and forth throw. So now I need to allow more length to the cable that goes in relation to the shifters' left and right movement.

Would swapping to the 91+ N/T cables that I have allow for me to do this? Is there any type of modification that I can do to allow these 90' Cables to work? i can cut, weld, bent, mash anything needed. I'm short like a damned 1/4' inch!

The only scrap yard around here that has any 1'gs wants like $70 for the shifter aseembly, when I paid them $30 for a flippin' flywheel on my N/T. So I'd really hate to change out cables and find out that I need the 91+ shifter to hit any gears.

My Goal here is to find a way to make the 90' Shifter work with a 91' Trans. So yeah... if there is any way to change anything else BESIDES the shifter, that'd be great.

 

[iwillnotbleed]

If you can replace that short cable ('90 model, 1/4" shorter) with the longer cable, that might work. If not, I would try just switching the cables with the 91+ NT cables you have. At least give it a shot and see, ya know. Good luck.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I'll try that and a few other things.. I have enough hardware around that I can mod whatever I need to. I want to get this thing working and get a good proven example up so people dealing with this don't have to ask so much.

I'll MAKE this work with the 90 Shifter. >;D

 

[iwillnotbleed]

Let me know how it goes. This question comes up all the time but no one ever has a solid answer. I guess it's just less of a hassle to buy the things you need and have it work than to tinker with stuff and see if you can get the origonal shifter to work.

 

[bme91gsx]

the only way you can make it work is to drill a hole in the horizontal lever about an inch towards the engine side.. and this will stress the hell out of the forks which u will break w/i 5k miles..

 

[jay-red]

did you swap the bracket that bolts to the trans? if using the 90 shifter you also need the bracket that bolts to the trans (that changed between 90 and 91) and the shifter arm that bolts to where the cables attach. you can keep the other arm that has a pin holding it in.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

did you swap the bracket that bolts to the trans? if using the 90 shifter you also need the bracket that bolts to the trans (that changed between 90 and 91) and the shifter arm that bolts to where the cables attach. you can keep the other arm that has a pin holding it in.

Here's what I've done so far.

I removed the old shifter cables as I found out that they have given out. Some of the tubing in the dash gave out and the metal rod that sits in the center of the cable to keep it straight popped out.

I put in a set of 91+ cables and hooked them up. The Cable that is adjustable is fitted to the Shifters' Left and right movement. The Gear select, or back and forth movement of the shifter, seems to be a few inches too long... for what reason I don't know.

Neutral at the shifter, is third at the Trans. Even with changing out shifters it'd still be too long. Anyone know anything about this?

The Current Setup is - 90' Shifter + 91' Cables + 91' Mounting Bracket at the trans.

EDIT

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/355940-how-shifter-cable-brackets-diff-between-90-91-dsm-vr4-trans.html

Per this thread, it shows that changing the shifter arms would be beneficial? And also.. the transmission doesn't have to be taken apart? -.- I love mis-information. I'll be looking into this today after work. If that's the case, this should solve a bit of the travel distance issue.

So Should I change the shift arms on the trans to the 90' Shift arms? I'm using the 90' Shift Assembly right now, 91'+ Cables, and the 91' Mounting bracket on the trans.

Again, this is a 91' Trans.

 

[jay-red]

you would be best off just getting a 91 shifter and swapping all over to a 91 shifter assembly. if you want to try to get what you have working then swap the bolt on shifter arm (the one that controls up and down movement) the other one has a pin holding it in, i hit mine with a punch and a 3lb hammer and it didnt move so i left it and it seems ok. BTW i have a 90 car with 91 shifter, cables, trans bracket and the mentioned bolt on arm and it shifts fine.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

The answer has already been given, maybe you just missed it. Drill a hole in the shifter arm right next to the stock mounting post and use a bolt and double nut to connect the cable to the arm. This is the only way its going to work without swapping out the shifter base to match the cables/bracket/trans. However, in doing this it is possible to over extend the forks while shifting and cause major transmission damage. So you must modify the shifter base and make new stops.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/wayback/mario_shifter.html

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/wayback/shiftendstop.html

Bottom line is for the amount of work involved here, you will be better off just going to the junkyard and getting a 91- base. ESP since you already have the cables, bracket, and trans.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

The answer has already been given, maybe you just missed it. Drill a hole in the shifter arm right next to the stock mounting post and use a bolt and double nut to connect the cable to the arm. This is the only way its going to work without swapping out the shifter base to match the cables/bracket/trans.

So, right next to the pin? Like.... directly beside it on the inside, closer to the engine? And by shifter arm, you mean that one that controls gear select and not left ot right movement which is up and down on the trans?

Secondly, Yes, I did read that, however... the thing that I'm looking to do here is try to make it work without TOO much damage done. Couldn't the arms themselves simply be changed without having to drill/tap anything?

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Couldn't the arms themselves simply be changed without having to drill/tap anything?

Simply? No. You will need to disassemble your transmission in order to get the arms out. Even then, I cannot say whether the 90/91- arms would be interchangable.

Check my post above again, I added links with pictures.

 

[bme91gsx]

yes the arms can interchange.. i have done it... but the only correct way to do this is to swap all the 91-94 stuff into your 90.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

So... =/ All anyone has accomplished... is that due to a 1/4' in difference in cable length... we're going to

A : Replace Trans Mounting Brackets
B : Replace Shifter Cables to Equal out the length
C : Replace the entire shift assembly ( to what, cause shorter throw? )

So I assume that the bracket that goes into the 91+ cables and connects to the trans mounting bracket needs to be changed too?

Alot of work over 1/4' in difference. ;D I suppose... I'll just head home, bust out my Mcguiver tools..and MAKE this work before I go order $60+ In parts JUST to make up for that itty bitty tiny bit of difference to lock in 1st gear. Otherwise, I'll just continue to survive with 2nd. Sorry if I'm stubborned, but with all that I've seen done with these cars, you can't tell me there is no other way to make up for that small difference in length.

So here's my new project. I'll update with pictures when it's working.

NOTE : None of this even begins to explain why the cable going to the back and forth movement is like... 2in' too long. ;D Boy... just getting into first gears seems to be more of a challenge and headache than my first rebuild...

Check my post above again, I added links with pictures.

Thanks for those references. Those should be very helpful. I'll only consider drilling the arm if absolutely needed, though.

 

[iwillnotbleed]

I really don't think that the shorter throw on the tranny forks is a good idea. Like was said, your tranny will not like it and take a crap real quick. So what set up do you have right now? Meaning '90 or '91+ shifter base, cables and brackets. I have both '90 and '91 transmission's for fwd and awd and have found no difference in the forks on the tranny. That's why I didn't ask, unless someone knows something different.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Here is a break down of everything.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/93739-90-shift-linkage-vs-91-94-shift-linkage.html

From the info I have gathered and from trans builders I have spoken to the correct way to get the job done with no complications/modifications is just swap everything to a 91+ setup.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Well.. I can find a 91+ shifter setup... but now I'm wanting to find out exactly how to do this so if/when anyone else runs into this and they don't have the cash to pay for a new shift assembly, they'll know how to do it.

The ONE thing that I'm worried about in the entire proceedure is... will drilling a hole just big enough to get a bolt through the shift arm cause the arm's structural strength to fail and snap? I doubt it will, just wanted to see.

I actually believe that I'll be experimenting with an adjustable bracket. ;D

Again, I'll post pictures when i'm finished. I've already modified the shifter cables to suit the distance from the shifter to the shift arm with the 90' Shift Assembly. If I happen to damage the shift arm, I can easily repair it.

Metal Repairs - These are the wonders of knowing how to weld light metals.

I do appreciate the input... but now that I see the 'Easy' way to fix it and the 'Cheap' way to fix it... I'll try both and see which is effective. I mean, come on... we all know " If you crack your block replace it. " But how many people have crackd their block, JB welded the hell out of it, and still happily boosted away for years to come?

Just because it isn't 'Correct' doesn't mean it isn't effective. I'll be posting pictures! Hopefully someone other than myself gets some use out of this as well!

 

[spoolin ddub]

A shifter assembly with cables should not cost more than. $45. If you haven't done so already while you are experimenting get new shifter base bushings and shifter bushings.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

The bushings are a must, of course. ;P

My plan here.. is to make a suitable and acceptable way to allow the pre-existing 90' Shift assembly work correctly with the 91' Trans changing only the bracket. In my case, I'll be using the 91+ cables because the 90's were crappy.. but I've already modified them to be about the same.

Pics coming Monday.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

For what its worth, I drilled the hole in my shifter arm long ago (probably 6-7 years) and it's fine. Hell I didnt even modify the shifter base with the new stops. From my personal experience it's pretty hard to over extend the forks unless you're really slammin through gears.. which I try not to do that often.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

For what its worth, I drilled the hole in my shifter arm long ago (probably 6-7 years) and it's fine. Hell I didnt even modify the shifter base with the new stops. From my personal experience it's pretty hard to over extend the forks unless you're really slammin through gears.. which I try not to do that often.

That's what I figured. o.o

Well, here's an update.

1st is kind of hard to get, but I think the synchro isn't lining up or something. I'm fairly sure 1st and 2nd share the same synchro? I can downshift to 2nd allll day long... but to get first I have to stop, shift to another gear, ease off the clutch till it catches, then try to shift to first, hold in on the shifter a little, and then it'll kinda slip in. Sometime it's stays, sometimes it doesn't. This means no launching for me.

The cables I used were far too long on the gear select motion. Infact, it's still about an inch too long but that's fine. I could have honestly used my 90' cables and gotten the same effect had I thought about modifying the way the shift arm was positioned. But I now have access to all gears with eash of hand. Absolutely no force, just sliding right in.

90' Base - 91' Cables - 91' Bracket - 91' Transmission. Instead of drilling a hole, I constructed a bracket and drilled a hole for a bold that was the same size. I then tightened the bracket made of soft metal over the arm... so there was no modifying the actual arm, only adding a 'prostetic' that added a second dowel for the shift cable. I then used a light coating of JB weld to help secure further.

Inside, I cut the shift cable for reduce it's length by about 5 inches. I then experimented with a few things. I was going to tack weld it back together, but as most people don't have a wire welder open to them, I reached for some rough sand-paper and JB weld. After I prepped the bonding area, I coated the two pieces of shift cable with JB weld, then took the shaft of an empty pen, cut it about 2 inches long, and ran the cables through it after putting a bit of weld in this. This helped contain the weld, not alloing it to sag, and since it's about the same size as the cable, it held the cable perfectly straight. I then coated the OUTSIDE of that with a generous amount of weld.

As this was totally experimental to see how this could be done with things that most people had... I let it cure the full 24Hrs, plus some, actually.. seeing as how 24 hours was about 8am and I slept in on Sunday. I then tested the hardness by checking the mix. It was solid. I then checked the cables and the bond. Solid.

It has held up over 150 Miles of easy shifting and driving. I have a spare set of cables incase this breaks. Of course I will update this thread if it does break. So far, adding the additional difference at the trans, and removing some at the shifter, this setup will work flawlessly. The 90' cables should work the same as well with only a little adjusting. Sadly mine were farked and I didn't know it till I removed them.

Pictures to come.