91 Eagle Talon TSI AWD What Happened?

[NCSean]

Ok, quick back story. I am thinking of buying a 91 Eagle Talon TSI AWD with a rebuilt 6 bolt long block plus a new clutch pressure plate and release bearing off a guy but unfortunately a young guy test driving it ran it like he stole it and tried to blow it up. When I spoke to the seller he had just got back with the car after he had trailered it for four hours round trip to sell it to the guy that messed it up and had spent $150 dollars in gas. Of course the buyer didn't want the car after it blew oil all over the engine bay. To say he was pissed is an understatement he was literally ready to sell the car for scrap metal because he was so angry and frustrated with the situation. Luckily I talked him out of that and got him to calm down. At the end of our conversation he was feeling much better and we agreed if he could fix the problems without to much cash outlay that I would purchase the car from him and that he would call me today with the diagnoses. Well he gave me a call today and said that the oil came from a crack in the valve cover that wasn't there before and that compression was down in the number two cylinder. He pressurized the coolant system and sure enough he could hear coolant a and air leaking into the cylinder, blown head gasket. So he removed the head and said all the pistons, rings and the valve train looked fine. When all this happened he said the guy was in third at redline when he heard a loud pop and oil smoke came out from under the hood. After looking everything over the car would still start and idle fine it would even rev fine. Luckily the seller is a mechanic and has access to a good friends machine shop so he knows what he is doing and has the tools to fix it. We have made an agreement that I would pay for the parts and he would install them and we would work out a lower price for the car than he had advertised. So what would cause a cracked valve cover and a blown head gasket and what other things could have been damaged? What can be done to insure this dosent happen again under boost? Also should I just look for another car or stick with this guy? Please help me make a smart decision on this car.To be honest I have been looking for a car just like this down to the color for a long time and dont want to let my feelings get in the way of making a smart decision.

 

[turbodude]

The blown head gasket was most likely caused by overheating of the engine. This could be accomplished by low or lack of proper engine coolant or running of the engine at extremely high temperatures for an over extended period of time. Could also be as simple as someone not putting on the radiator cap correctly (seen it before). This could also have caused the crack in your valve cover, engine overheated, blew the head gasket then shot coolant all over the engine bay since the cap was not installed properly which in turn cracked your valve cover. This is all hypothetical of course... But it could most certainly be a valid scenario of what actually happened.

also, don't rule out pre-ignition or detonation... Which could also cause grief on your head gasket and engine in general. So check your timing!

Me personally, i don't like buying problems... unless it was meant strictly as a secondary project car and i got a heck of a deal on it. Use your intuition and do what your gut tells ya. Of course, after getting your questions answered here so you can make a knowledgeable gut decision

 

[Rockyp]

Stick with it. 91 TSi AWDs aren't found everywhere. If you're sure a DSM is right for you, pay the 2-3k for a nice rebuild and have a good engine as a building block for the future. There's no point in doing a stock rebuild and trying to reach 500hp with it. If you build it and decide you don't want 500hp, you always have a selling point for the next buyer. As for problems that could be cause while high revs and a loud pop, Timing belt break, valvetrain wear, warped head, and I've even seen connecting rods destroyed. The list goes on and on. Either way, high RPM + loud pop + busted gasket = rebuild.

Think of it the way I talked my wife into letting me rebuild my car. Reliable performance rebuilds cost between 2-5k. You can hardly find a 95 Neon for cheaper than that.

 

[NCSean]

Some more background on the car and engine. The car would eventually be my daily driver, my wife drives a 2009 Corolla that is our primary car and I live right across the street from my work, literally a two minute walk so if the car is down its not an issue. When the head gasket popped no coolant leaked or over flowed and the engine wasn't over heating at the time. Also he said the bad section of head gasket was almost a pin hole running from the coolant jacket to the number two cylinder. When this occurred the car was running at red line in third and on full boost. After the gasket blew the engine idled normally and revved normally in fact there was not even any steam coming out the tail pipe or bubbles in the overflow tank. He has a rebuilt head that has been shaved and new cams to install on the motor and the engine was found to be in tolerance when he rebuilt it so he honed the cylinders put new rings, piston pins, main and rod bearings, front and rear seals , timing belt, tensioner, pulleys, counter balance belt, pulleys, and tensioner , oil pump and water pump, fully rebuilt head with three angle valve job and new cams plus he resurfaced the flywheel and changed out the whole clutch system for new parts, wheew. Also he had the head shaved which probably upped the compression which probably contributed to the gasket failure. Did I mention its a six bolt and is in my favorite first gen color scheme black with silver on the bottom and it has a sun roof with zero and I mean zero rust and no dents just minor parking lot rash or cracked exterior plastic and the original interior with no tears or busted trim and the rug is even in great shape and all the buttons and doo dads still work perfectly? All for $2800. I cant pass it up unless the motor is blown up because I dont have the three to five grand to get it running right now and I need it running. So with all this do you guys think this is an easy fix and I should buy it or pass? And if it is an easy fix what parts do I need to buy to beef it up to make sure this doesn't happen again when he puts it back together? Also seeing as the compression is higher than stock what needs to be done to insure the motor will not knock at full boost short of DSM link (which is a definite future upgrade on any DSM I buy)?

 

[3kgt2nv]

if you dont have the knowledge or time to dig into the car yourself i would pass. simply because if he is looking to sell it how bubble gum fixed is it gunna be so the guy can dump it. and i can tell you after have several high hp imports you don't let people beat it or drive it $150 worth of gas to "show it to someone. people come to you with cash in hand before you let them get in the car.

This whole story sounds kinda iffy and like your going to get screwed prison style, no lube or a thank you at the end.

 

[NCSean]

if you dont have the knowledge or time to dig into the car yourself i would pass. simply because if he is looking to sell it how bubble gum fixed is it gunna be so the guy can dump it. and i can tell you after have several high hp imports you don't let people beat it or drive it $150 worth of gas to "show it to someone. people come to you with cash in hand before you let them get in the car.

This whole story sounds kinda iffy and like your going to get screwed prison style, no lube or a thank you at the end.

Any other time I would agree with you about not trusting the guy but Ive been around awhile and am a pretty good judge of character. The guy comes off as very trusting and honest almost to trusting for his own good, just a good ole country boy who loves high performance cars. I think the guy he took it to played him. He told him the sale was a sure thing but he needed him to deliver it because he didn't have a car to go pick it up with. Then when he screwed up the head gasket during his joy ride slash test drive he backed out of the deal even though the seller was willing to make it right for no extra money. In fact he offered to sell me the car for $1000 just to get it away from him because he was so pissed about the whole situation. But like turbodude said I don t like buying problems that's why I want it running right before I purchase it. But first I need to have an idea of how much money I'm talking about here. Then I can screw it up all by myself .

 

[3kgt2nv]

for 1000 i would take it as is. thats the price of a rolling shell. and it sounds like your looking for someone to tell you to jump on it.

 

[NCSean]

3kgt2nv for 1000 i would take it as is. That's the price of a rolling shell. and it sounds like your looking for someone to tell you to jump on it.

Pretty much that's the case. But im really, really trying to be objective about this and its real hard when its something you've wanted since you were 19 and now your 40. Plus if he can fix it right for me and I end up with a good rebuilt engine and a nice running car that's more time I can spend on making power instead of doing an engine rebuild. Decisions decisions .

 

[3kgt2nv]

Part of making power is knowing the engine can handle the power. I would get the car and do the rebuild properly so you know its good. Power will come with time, reliability is what i would look for. And I dont think a low price build on the previous owners part is going to give you that reliability.

 

[bryanwheat]

Sounds like it had problems before he let the guy test drive it if it overheated and blew the head gasket on a test drive. If the engine is put together properly and tuned properly than he should of been able to drive it to redline at wot every time he took off and it won't hurt the engine.

 

[NCSean]

I would tend to agree with you but in his defense he does build supercharged and nitrous equipped Ford drag motors for people as a side profession on top of being a general mechanic . But he was honest and said this was his first turbo four he has ever built and I dont think he quite grasped all the intricacies of building a turbo four with the type of temps and pressures a turbo can produce. How much would I be looking at to do a long block build that could support five hundred to the wheels reliably taking in to account I dont baby any car I own. I dont abuse them and I do maintain them but I definitely dont baby them.

 

[3kgt2nv]

Realistically figure about 3-4k for a long block build.

 

[bryanwheat]

Realistically figure about 3-4k for a long block build.

Maybe if you are paying someone to do all the work to it.

 

[NCSean]

Sounds like it had problems before he let the guy test drive it if it overheated and blew the head gasket on a test drive. If the engine is put together properly and tuned properly than he should of been able to drive it to redline at wot every time he took off and it won't hurt the engine.

Thats the thing it didn't overheat it just blew thru into a water jacket on the number two piston almost a pin hole at that. My theory is shaving the head upped the compression ratio and I bet he was running 87 octane fuel so when the seller was test driving it he was taking it easy on the new rings so it never got into full boost or even got close to red line and ran fine with no knock. When the kid got in it a romped on it the combo of higher than stock compression, full boost, stock timing, red line RPM's and insufficient octane caused severe detonation causing the flame front to start at the edge of the cylinder burning right through the gasket. The pop they heard was a backfire through the intake when the fuel ignited early. Again just a theory. What do you guys think?

 

[3kgt2nv]

machine work
bore,hone,align bore, hot tank, balance rotating assembly, deck block and head, polish crank if still good

$500-600

new rods and pistons
$750-900 depending on brand

new front case
$300

new gasket set with mls head gasket
$200

bearings
$75

Thats already 1825 at the low end. Realistically to make 500 to the wheels i think it will be higher and im sure there is stuff im forgetting that should be included in the build.

And that's not even including anything for the head other than a simple decking.

For him building v8s and drag cars alot of machinists are kinda surprised when they find out how tight the tolerances are for mitsu engines.

 

[NCSean]

Oh I forgot to mention he installed a basic head gasket from Advanced Auto and reused the stock head bolts. If that makes a difference.

 

[3kgt2nv]

Well that's most likely the issue there but makes you wonder what else he skimped on. Like reused engine bearings for example.

 

[bryanwheat]

I can get all that machine work done at like 5 different shops in my area for 400 or less. You also don't need to line hone the block if it is in spec and if you are not using main studs (which are not required for 500 horsepower). You also are not going to need much head work at all, freshen up the valves and seats, install some good springs and retainers and a set of cams and you are good to go. I usually spend in the range of 1600-2200 with parts and machine work depending on what is done to the head. If you are paying someone to take it apart, clean and machine every single part, clearance, and assemble it than you might spend upwards of 3k.

 

[3kgt2nv]

I guess that's a difference. I would rather do everything once than have to worry about something little.

 

[NCSean]

Yeah it comes down to do I trust the guy or not, which sucks. I hate that you have to question peoples word so much these days. What ever happened to your word is your bond? I'm meeting up with him at his house Sunday and we are going to put the car on his lift so I can give it a thorough inspection and inspect the engine that's when i will decide to pass or take it as is or have him do the work for me.

 

[Rockyp]

machine work
bore,hone,align bore, hot tank, balance rotating assembly, deck block and head, polish crank if still good
Thats already 1825 at the low end. Realistically to make 500 to the wheels i think it will be higher and im sure there is stuff im forgetting that should be included in the build.

And that's not even including anything for the head other than a simple decking.

For him building v8s and drag cars alot of machinists are kinda surprised when they find out how tight the tolerances are for mitsu engines.

That's completely true. i've dropped 2k in my build so far and haven't even done machine work yet.

 

[NCSean]

Well I bought the car and could not be happier . Other than the usual issues a 20 year old car has its in great shape. The only issues I have with it is the previous owner installed a butt ugly 2 foot tall Fast and Furious wing on the back a mega fart can muffler plus the obligatory foe carbon fiber pedal covers and a wobbly aluminum shift nob I mean it literally wobbles . Plus I found mounts for neon tubes and wiring for a sub box. Can we all say RICE! I swear if I ever saw this guy I would have to slap the #$%@ out of him! Who does this to a great car like the 1st gen Talon? Also I have to figure out what he has done to the turbo system seeing as the guy installed a manual boost controller and a atmosphere BOV with no boost gauge other than the stock one. I'm sure he didn't add the proper supporting mods and had the boost turned way to high. That might explain the fist size hole in the original block where the counter balance shaft bearings seized . I have my work cut out for me but I cant wait to get started .