60 trim setup questions???

[fwdeclipse]

In lower gears theres very little load on the motor so boost build is going to be alittle slower. The boost threshold of a turbo setup is usually determined in 4th gear instead of the lower gears. In fourth gear my eyes were glued to the road so I never had a chance to check the spool up but I estimate that it was somewhere between 5000-5300. Like I said, your setup will spool up alot quicker than mine because I have a somewhat heavily ported 1G head (very large ports) and FP2 cams. My car has always been laggy with every turbo I ran so its not an accurate representation of how well your setup will spool. Those spool numbers don't mean s**t because the rate of rpm rise in 3rd is damn near the same as it is in 1st and 2nd . With the T4 hotside airflow is extremely high at even at low boost levels so the entire gear is completed while you are spooling, going from 80 to 115 in 3rd gear once the tires bit only took about .9-1.3secs. I never had a chance to take it to the dyno or track but that thing had to have been trapping every bit of 130+mph in the 1/4 on pump. Boost recovery was pretty good and will be even better with NLTS (I never had to use it).
I run my 880s with a keydivers chip and the car idles and runs smooth as stock, he can compensate for 1000s and 1000s are what you should run so you'll never have to upgrade injectors again.
My 60 trim got destroyed in the flywheel explosion so once I get it running again within the next month I think I'm going to step up (T4/GT40 or Turbonetics t61). I'm leaning towards the Turbonetics t61 due to the fact that tip speed is kept lower above 30psi due to the larger exducer thus leading to greater efficiency.

BTW if you still think that its going to dissapoint you should sell it to me and run a bolt on 50 trim instead

No I dont think it will dissapoint I just wanted to make sure I could spool this baby.I am really excited to bolt this baby on.From the sounds of it she should make some good power.Thanks for all the input this is exactly what I needed to hear from somebody.

 

[91-gsx]

i was wondering were i could buy that exact same turbo, or other ones that have a T4 housing at a good price? i did not wanna look through ebay for them, so i was wondering if there was a website that sold these type of turbos with combinations that you could choose?
thanks for the help

 

[Reese92tsi]

i was wondering were i could buy that exact same turbo, or other ones that have a T4 housing at a good price? i did not wanna look through ebay for them, so i was wondering if there was a website that sold these type of turbos with combinations that you could choose?
thanks for the help

In my case I bought a 60 trim w/P-trim chra from Bullseye power and put a Turbonetics .68ar T4 housing on it

 

[Reese92tsi]

i was wondering were i could buy that exact same turbo, or other ones that have a T4 housing at a good price? i did not wanna look through ebay for them, so i was wondering if there was a website that sold these type of turbos with combinations that you could choose?
thanks for the help

Sorry for not fully answering your question. You can go to cheapturbo.com, agpturbo.com, forcedperformance.net, and search on ebay there are a couple of turbonetics and garrett dealers up there that have T4s.

 

[fwdeclipse]

i was wondering were i could buy that exact same turbo, or other ones that have a T4 housing at a good price? i did not wanna look through ebay for them, so i was wondering if there was a website that sold these type of turbos with combinations that you could choose?
thanks for the help

Luckily for me I work at a mechanics shop and a guy came in with a toyota tundra that had a sts turbo kit on it.He ended up blowing his motor and took the turbo off.I bought the turbo and wastegate from him for 200 bucks.

 

[DGajre777]

The 190 can't quite keep up with the EVO 16g, so that should answer that question.

Could you please clarify your post above?

- Forced Performance lists the 190 pump to handle 400WHP. http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...FP&Product_Code=GSS2xx&Category_Code=DSM-Fuel
- CanadianTSi runs 11.8 in the 1/4 with a 190 pump, SAFC, 660ccs and a 50trim (I believe without a rewire).

 

[GVR4592]

400whp isn't the limit of the Evo 3, and if you do the math it will outflow a 190. Some people might be able to get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

 

[DGajre777]

Here's some more info...

I was iffy about it at first, but I did the math, and it appears that a 190 could support 400 hp.

To clarify, according to the formula HP = (lb/hr)/BSFC (gasoline typically has a BSFC or .5), in theory to support 400 hp, you'll need a pump that can push 200 lb/hr of fuel. Convert to LPH, that's only 126, convert to GPH, that' 33. Sounds good, so far.

So now we check the flow rate of a Walbro 190. At 13.5 volts, and a base fuel presure of 42 psi (what most injectors are typically rated at) this pump checks in at 49 GPH. Assuming that you push that turbo to approx 20 psi, with a 1:1 fpr, that drops your flow to approx 42 gph.

So there you have it. If you saw my entry prior to the edit, I didn't do the math.

The hp formula is here:
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pump_faq.html
The volume conversion page is here:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/injectorvolcalc.html
Flow rates for walbro 190 and 255 pumps are here:
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fpspecs.html

With that said, I still prefer overdoing things to be on the safe side. With all four injectors maxed out, you'll be pushing 2700 cc/min (247 lb/hr, 156 lph, 41 gph). To me, I think this puts that pump very close to not providing enough fuel to keep those injectors happy, and if you end up pushing more than 20 psi, then that fuel pump will not be enough.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250577

 

[GVR4592]

The math looks right but the flow numbers and BSFC aren't correct. The 190 flows around 27 g/ph at 75 psi, and BSFC for a turbocharged gasoline engine is around .6.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Could you please clarify your post above?

- Forced Performance lists the 190 pump to handle 400WHP. http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...FP&Product_Code=GSS2xx&Category_Code=DSM-Fuel
- CanadianTSi runs 11.8 in the 1/4 with a 190 pump, SAFC, 660ccs and a 50trim (I believe without a rewire).

I don't like to do any calculations on fuel capacity that don't include mass airflow rate, fuel specific gravity, and target AFR. Anything you do without these is worthless IMO. That being said, at 43 psi base pressure, the 20-21 psi it takes to get max airflow out of the EVO 16g properly modded, pump gas with a specific gravity of .75, and a target AFR of 11:1, the 190 will support about 40 lbs/min rewired. Non-rewired it's in the low-mid 30s. To go through it on race gas you get the same capacity. You can lean out to 12:1, but the specific gravity of race gas is much lower than pump gas, canceling that out. The EVO 16g maxes out at 42 lbs/min.

To give a real world example, let's look at my EVO. Same compressor wheel as the EVO3 16g. The stock pump is slightly bigger than a 190. On stock wiring, the math says it can only do 34-35 lbs/min at 11:1 at 20 psi. Sure enough, at 34 lbs/min AFR would begin to climb eventually settling at 12.5:1. And many people with EVOs on stock wired pumps and high boost on pump gas end up at that same 12.5:1, go figure. Rewired, the math says the pump can support 44 lbs/min. I measured up to 43 lbs/min with no deviation from target AFR.

The same math I use (now in spreadsheet form) also predicted IDC to within 1%. You won't get this kind of accuracy using BSFC or any other formula that uses magic numbers and unproved assumptions.

I refuse to use other people's performance results to gauge anything to do with fuel system capacity. That line of thinking has cost me a ridiculous amount of money. Some people can do more with less. More power with less airflow (and therefore fuel). Quicker ET with less power. Etc. The ultimate example of this for me was all the people running 10s on 255 pumps, while my heavier 2g that needed to move more air than most to make a given power level, and needed to make more power to reach a particular ET, etc, tossing the motor at only 11.3 seconds (but 65 lbs/min). Had I ignored what "other people" had done on that pump and done the math that I did after the fact, I would probably have a 10 second 2g right now with a bigger fuel pump.

The simple answer to your original question however is just that I know this first-hand from personal experience.

 

[fwdeclipse]

I have not put a logger on this 60trim yet but Im still on my rewired 190 and my 650s and am running this 60trim at 25psi with zero knock.That is with an 11:1 afr. I am also running water/meth injection. I have a 255 waiting to go in just waitin for the afpr. That being said does that mean I am not flowing more than 40lb/min because im not knocking so I must not be out of fuel. Im curious because this car moves at 25psi so im pretty sure im flowing more than that. I am pretty sure the meth injection has alot to do with me getting away with running this much boost on a 190 and 650s.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

According to your mod list, you don't have cams, which would put you right around the 41-43 lb/min range at 25 psi. So it is very possible that the meth injection gives the little nudge you need to stay in the 11:1 range with the 190. Also, are you reading that 11:1 on a WBO2 or assuming it's 11:1 because that's what your chip/tune is set for? It's entirely possible that you are leaning out to 11.5 for example and not getting any knock... Etc.

 

[fwdeclipse]

According to your mod list, you don't have cams, which would put you right around the 41-43 lb/min range at 25 psi. So it is very possible that the meth injection gives the little nudge you need to stay in the 11:1 range with the 190. Also, are you reading that 11:1 on a WBO2 or assuming it's 11:1 because that's what your chip/tune is set for? It's entirely possible that you are leaning out to 11.5 for example and not getting any knock... Etc.

Yeah I do not have cams. Yeah i am just assuming that its 11:1 because thats what the chip is burned for. When I install my bc 280 cams how much more airflow can I get from that. Or is that question not possible to answer.