500 whp dream

[jlog1506]

Whats up guys, I just bought my first dsm, a 92 Talon Tsi shell. My goal for the car is around 500whp. Im very new to all of this and am reading and learning as much as possible but am still very confused. Im putting together a list of parts that I need to buy. Im trying to do this on a budget so most parts I will buy used. I want to do it on 93oct. The car will not be a daily driver, just some weekend cruising, maybe take it to the strip. This is what I came up with so far. Any tip will be appreciated. Thanks



1992 Eagle Talon Build
Goal-500whp

Motor:

Block:
6 Bolt Block-
Wiseco Forged Piston Set .20over/ 8.5 to 1 CR
Eagle H Beam Rods

Head:
ARP Headstuds




Fuel System:

255hp walbro
FIC 1650cc injectors


ECU:

DsmLink


Turbo/Intake/Exhaust:

Holset Hx35
VRSF Fmic kit Flanged for Tial Bov
Tial Alpha Q Bov
3" Exhaust

Drive Train:

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Your missing a alot, bearings? Headstuds? Etc? And get fic2150s right off the bat i wish i had. You can tune any size with ecmlink. If not 2150s 1600's

 

[jlog1506]

Your missing a alot, bearings? Headstuds? Etc? And get fic2150s right off the bat i wish i had. You can tune any size with ecmlink. If not 2150s 1600's

Yea I know im missing a ton, just wanted to know if what I have to far was good. And as you guys give me advice I was going to add to the list until its complete. Thanks, just added arp headstuds. And you think go with 2150's even on pump gas?

 

[TucsonTSI]

Do you have a budget? Ideal timeline?

You're going to need a timing kit and a good clutch kit. There are a lot of choices out there for the clutch especially, take your time finding the right one for you! To really take advantage of the turbo, you may want to invest in cams too, but that can add up fast if you start upgrading valvetrain (required if running aggressive cams). Are you having any work done by a machine shop? Bore the block? Resurface the head?

You're hoping for 500 hp on a hx35 and pump gas? That seems like a stretch to me if you aren't running methanol/e85/race gas. Not to discourage you though, the hx35 should make 400-450hp on pump gas, which is enough power to run 11's all day.

Do you have experience working on/modifying/tuning cars?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Well with 1000's at 30 psi on the bolt on hx40 i was seeing 92% duty cycle. And even now on 2150s i see 50% duty at 35psi on race gas. If you ever wanna go e85 ull have that option also. Buy te biggest injector you can so u dont have to do it twice

 

[jlog1506]

Do you have a budget? Ideal timeline?

You're going to need a timing kit and a good clutch kit. There are a lot of choices out there for the clutch especially, take your time finding the right one for you! To really take advantage of the turbo, you may want to invest in cams too, but that can add up fast if you start upgrading valvetrain (required if running aggressive cams). Are you having any work done by a machine shop? Bore the block? Resurface the head?

You're hoping for 500 hp on a hx35 and pump gas? That seems like a stretch to me if you aren't running methanol/e85/race gas. Not to discourage you though, the hx35 should make 400-450hp on pump gas, which is enough power to run 11's all day.

Do you have experience working on/modifying/tuning cars?

I plan on bring the block to a machine shop, just figuring out what I want first. I dont have much experience with tuning. I own a Lancer Ralliart that ive done some things like an intercooler etc. Basic stuff. My best friend is a mechanic at BMW and he is builiding the car with me. I dont have a set budget, but I am young and trying to spend as little as possible while satisfying. Timeline? umm I havent really thought about it, as long as it takes i guess . Also do you have any experience with the IC kit i posted. Ive done some research and heard it was sufficient.

Well with 1000's at 30 psi on the bolt on hx40 i was seeing 92% duty cycle. And even now on 2150s i see 50% duty at 35psi on race gas. If you ever wanna go e85 ull have that option also. Buy te biggest injector you can so u dont have to do it twice

Makes sense

 

[rvaughn]

I'd suggest avoiding race gas with FIC 2150 bluemax injectors. The inner seals in them are not made for it. See here:

2150cc FIC Mitsubishi DSM or EVO 8/9 BlueMax Fuel Injector Clinic Injector Set (High-Z)

With that said, e85 with those injectors will be a great start to a 500 whp fuel system. It will give you a lot of room to grow too.

 

[dsmcurse]

Kyle, can you explain what a injector duty cycle is? In your own words explain this how you interprit what a duty cycle means, I just wanna see how your brain works compared to mine is all. I originally purchased Bosch 1600's but they proved to be rather shitty. Went with a smaller Bluemax 1150's. Those injectors worked way better for me. Over 600awhp on any dyno any day of the week and those smaller injectors are easily doin work for me man.

Original poster, pay attention, this thread is about to get real informational. The next few post's that pop up in this thread will be educational. After a little idc discussion we'll get back on track with pointing you in the right direction for your goals

 

[campos_racing]

You will be pushing that hx35 on pump gas in order to reach your goal. I would go e85 or get an Hx40. You would rather want a turbo with more room to grow.

 

[TSicktalon]

Don't the injectors get a bit more difficult to tune in at idle and part throttle as you get extremely large?

I'm currently sporting 550's and will be upgrading in the near future. I was thinking 100-1200 range, since there's a snowball's chance of me getting e85 anytime soon, but if 2150's idle well I might as well make the jump.

 

[dsmcurse]

partial throttle is deffinatley differant with very big injectors.

 

[jlog1506]

Kyle, can you explain what a injector duty cycle is? In your own words explain this how you interprit what a duty cycle means, I just wanna see how your brain works compared to mine is all. I originally purchased Bosch 1600's but they proved to be rather shitty. Went with a smaller Bluemax 1150's. Those injectors worked way better for me. Over 600awhp on any dyno any day of the week and those smaller injectors are easily doin work for me man.

Original poster, pay attention, this thread is about to get real informational. The next few post's that pop up in this thread will be educational. After a little idc discussion we'll get back on track with pointing you in the right direction for your goals

Ill stay behind the scenes for a little , thanks again Guys. Going to
Update my list when I get home

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Don't the injectors get a bit more difficult to tune in at idle and part throttle as you get extremely large?

I'm currently sporting 550's and will be upgrading in the near future. I was thinking 100-1200 range, since there's a snowball's chance of me getting e85 anytime soon, but if 2150's idle well I might as well make the jump.

I have no issues idling my 2150s on pump gas... They idle better than my pte 1000s after getting the inj battery adjust all worked out.

I'd suggest avoiding race gas with FIC 2150 bluemax injectors. The inner seals in them are not made for it. See here:

2150cc FIC Mitsubishi DSM or EVO 8/9 BlueMax Fuel Injector Clinic Injector Set (High-Z)

With that said, e85 with those injectors will be a great start to a 500 whp fuel system. It will give you a lot of room to grow too.

Wrong. Stay away from OXYGINATED race gas. Anything with MTBE. So you can run C16 like me, but not Q16.

WTF the miss information in here...

Kyle, can you explain what a injector duty cycle is? In your own words explain this how you interprit what a duty cycle means, I just wanna see how your brain works compared to mine is all. I originally purchased Bosch 1600's but they proved to be rather shitty. Went with a smaller Bluemax 1150's. Those injectors worked way better for me. Over 600awhp on any dyno any day of the week and those smaller injectors are easily doin work for me man.

Original poster, pay attention, this thread is about to get real informational. The next few post's that pop up in this thread will be educational. After a little idc discussion we'll get back on track with pointing you in the right direction for your goals

In my own words a duty cycle?

Basically how hard the injectors are working to pulse the desired fuel mix. The higher the duty cycle. The harder the injectors are working to pulse the amount of fuel you tuned for to make the correct mixture to how much air your putting in. More boost= higher duty cycle.
Fuel pressure will also habe an effect on duty cycle.
Lol in my own words anyway.

This is a good read

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/idc.html


Rep points to get rid of my re chicklet??

 

[dsmcurse]

Almost home and I can explain this very well from the desk-top computer. It would be to much to do from a cell phone post. Give me ten minutes and what I will post will turn a light bulb on above your head I promise

 

[boost97gst]

500whp, pump gas, hx35....... ya, would you like fries with that?

These threads are popping up too much. OP: READ. The plans are there, look at the dyno challenge and copy what theyre doing or just do some research. Not too difficult.

IDCs are calculated given the pulse width(time) of the DC voltage applied to the injector and the max flow of the injector. At a certain point the injector basically has no time to close in order to meet the afr demands resulting in 100% IDC. , atleast thats the way i see it.


after typing i googled it and heres a basic explanation
Injector Duty Cycle Explained

They explained it better than my attempt

 

[iBoostDSM]

If you want 500whp out of the hx35 you're going to need to run e85 or race gas with a t3 or the stock twin scroll housing. I'm at 400whp on a mustang dyno on the bolt on housing and the housing is what is limiting me now.

 

[deylag]

At 500 awhp I would go with twin walbro fuel pumps or the 400. Its going to help to keep the fuel pressure stable.

 

[jayson427]

Can't 6 bolt internals hold over 500hp? I would think a stock rebuild with upgraded bearings new oil pump and valve train would be a good start for your goal. Without spending 900 for forged internals, I would put that into the head work and valve train parts. And a 255 rewired pump would work but I hear 400lph are better especially if you switch to e85. And you have to get the block to a machine shop before you determine piston size if it needs bored. Alot of people make that mistake. Make sure you find a machine shop that knows what they are doing. Bad tolerances will make a motor not last like it should.

 

[jlog1506]

If I have to go e85 I will, I was just told that they change formulas every season and I would have to get retuned

 

[dsmcurse]

If you called the scientist's at Honda or the engineers at Toyota they would all tell you something slightly differant but roughly the same. Here's what the Mitsubishi big shots would say (not exactly but im sure it would be very similar)

As we all know a four cycle engine has 4 motions to create one cycle. Intake valves open and piston goes down to inhale its fresh air (is also getting its fuel sprayed to make air fuel mixture) this is called intake. The piston goes back up with both valves closed to squish the air/fuel mixture, this is called compression. The explosion happens and sends the piston back down, this is called power. The exhaust valve opens and piston goes back up to expell the wasted byproduct, this is called exhaust.

So we have Intake, Compression, Power, and finally Exhaust. The fuel is ONLY sprayed at the very first round of all this witch-craft called the intake cycle.

If fuel was sprayed at any other moment the engine would go titty-wompus and not work correctly.

Here is what a injector duty cycle is (roughly)

From (this aint exact only my way of explaining it) , oh, say, 5* befor top dead center to, oh, say 10* befor bottom dead center (about 170* of a crank rotation) this window of time is where an injector can fire. From 5* btdc to 10* bbdc.

During this window of time is when the injector can fire. On intake stroke only, from the top of its stroke to the bottom of the stroke. This window of time is where a injector can spray. Depending on how much fuel is required to be delivered will make it spray for a very short amount of time or maybe the whole length of time.

So say piston is at the top, goin down on intake stroke to inhale fresh air, say fuel demand aint much at all, it only sprays fuel say 25* of the crank rotation, this would mean (example) 20% injector duty cycle. Say piston is at the top and is goin down to the very bottom of its stroke and the fuel demand is so great that it sprayed fuel the entire time from top dead center to bottom dead center, this is 100% duty cycle. It sprayed fuel the entire time during its window of operating time. Now lets say fuel demand was so great that the fuel injector kept spraying as the piston went past bottom dead center, this is why its possible to log %120 injector duty cycle.

If IDC is over 100 percent, than fuel demand was so great that it continued to spray fuel even past its normal amount of operating time.

The fuel injectors spray for a given amount of time on piston travel, NOT how hard they spray.

a duty cycle is not how hard it sprays or how long the injector was open. The amount of injector duty cycle means how long it delivered gas during the window of time that the piston has to inhale its fresh air gulp

 

[jlog1506]

Can't 6 bolt internals hold over 500hp? I would think a stock rebuild with upgraded bearings new oil pump and valve train would be a good start for your goal. Without spending 900 for forged internals, I would put that into the head work and valve train parts. And a 255 rewired pump would work but I hear 400lph are better especially if you switch to e85. And you have to get the block to a machine shop before you determine piston size if it needs bored. Alot of people make that mistake. Make sure you find a machine shop that knows what they are doing. Bad tolerances will make a motor not last like it should.

I thought it was pretty risking to run a stock motor at that level. And can't I just pick what size pistons and then bore it to spec?

 

[iBoostDSM]

I wouldn't want to have a stock 6 bolt at 500whp. Can it handle it? Yes. Will it last as long very long? No. At the power range it starts to become a ticking time bomb.

And if you can't get e85 think about some sort of meth injection setup.

 

[dsmcurse]

The original poster, do you read car magazines? Ever see the badass street cars in the mags and it shows their dyno sheet and its all legit and everything and its like 550hp car and you read the list of mods and it say 900cc injectors. Then you wonder "how the hell does it make that much power with that small of injector?" Well, for one, that 550hp car on smaller 900cc injectors probably runs beautiful and has awesome partial throttle cruise. It might log 95% IDC but as long as air fuel ratio aint lean, WHO CARES!

Now im not saying to everyone its safe to run high IDC, what im saying is if the A/F ration is safe, then what differance does it make? There are other factors that come into play as well.

(first example that comes to mind)

I run direct port meth injection, 330cc squirter in each intake manni runner. This is over 1300cc of fuel (I mix my boost juice 75%meth 25%water) that dsmlink doesnt account for. It can log how long it sprayed the injectors during its window of operating time -hence the term injector duty cycle- but the added amount of water/meth isnt accounted for.

I run 1150 injectors and clear 600awhp and I dont think ive ever logged over 75%. My partial throttle at cruise is good, BUT, it could be better. I consider swapping to even smaller injectors like 1000s to gain back the smoothness during cruise. I could see 100% IDC but that wouldnt mean shit to me because i have 1300cc of meth fuel that gets sprayed at anything over 15psi boost. With 1000cc injectors I can totally picture myself having near stock driveabilty and perfect partial throttle cruise. I also picture my laptop logging 100% IDC or better with those injectors but i can garentee I wouldnt be lean. My A/F ratio would remain plenty safe thanks to direct port water/meth.

Now days companys have these huge ass 2200cc injectors, just because the companys make this stuff, doesnt mean you need it. Im a firm believer in less is more kinda thing 2200's are over kill in my book.

OP dreams of 500hp, all im sayin is 2200's are not needed. FACT. You could pump that out on 780's. Bet your ass you could.

Oh ya, + 1 to Kyle for putting things in his own words. Takes alot more charisma to explain things out of your own head vs's a stupid google search than cut copy paste and drop a link into a thread thats a buncha info that you didnt even make nor understand. I coulda dropped a link in here that was all scientific mumbo-jumbo but I think my explanation of injector duty cycle is pretty spot on and easy to understand vs's a science explanation from a google search....

 

[Tyeler18]

Who cares? Your engine does when you have an alternator fail, or battery, or the wiring begins to burn up. Your engine will care if your fuel pump starts to fail and now you can't supply the pressure to maintain stable IDC's. THAT'S why you aren't recommend to run over 80% IDC. One small burp in the charging system, or high resistance in a connector will quickly grenade a nice engine.

The new drivers in new big injectors (IE 2150+) are actually quite impressive. Part throttle is just as good as a smaller injector. The old school 1450-1800ID injectors were junk which was why you need the easy tune box, but the new stuff is way faster, and has no problem keeping up with smaller injectors.

The original poster, do you read car magazines? Ever see the badass street cars in the mags and it shows their dyno sheet and its all legit and everything and its like 550hp car and you read the list of mods and it say 900cc injectors. Then you wonder "how the hell does it make that much power with that small of injector?" Well, for one, that 550hp car on smaller 900cc injectors probably runs beautiful and has awesome partial throttle cruise. It might log 95% IDC but as long as air fuel ratio aint lean, WHO CARES!

Now im not saying to everyone its safe to run high IDC, what im saying is if the A/F ration is safe, then what differance does it make? There are other factors that come into play as well.

(first example that comes to mind)

I run direct port meth injection, 330cc squirter in each intake manni runner. This is over 1300cc of fuel (I mix my boost juice 75%meth 25%water) that dsmlink doesnt account for. It can log how long it sprayed the injectors during its window of operating time -hence the term injector duty cycle- but the added amount of water/meth isnt accounted for.

I run 1150 injectors and clear 600awhp and I dont think ive ever logged over 75%. My partial throttle at cruise is good, BUT, it could be better. I consider swapping to even smaller injectors like 1000s to gain back the smoothness during cruise. I could see 100% IDC but that wouldnt mean shit to me because i have 1300cc of meth fuel that gets sprayed at anything over 15psi boost. With 1000cc injectors I can totally picture myself having near stock driveabilty and perfect partial throttle cruise. I also picture my laptop logging 100% IDC or better with those injectors but i can garentee I wouldnt be lean. My A/F ratio would remain plenty safe thanks to direct port water/meth.

Now days companys have these huge ass 2200cc injectors, just because the companys make this stuff, doesnt mean you need it. Im a firm believer in less is more kinda thing 2200's are over kill in my book.

OP dreams of 500hp, all im sayin is 2200's are not needed. FACT. You could pump that out on 780's. Bet your ass you could.

 

[dsmcurse]

Wouldn't you agree that if your wireharness started to catch fire your IDC is meaningless no matter what? . If your on the verge on distruction that a alternator spike is gonna be make it or break it differance, than again, IDC is pointless. This makes me smile