450 injectors

[steelzeus]

I have an an auto 1st gen and from what I understand it has 390cc injectors if I put the 450s from a manual on it will the pcm adjust to be adjust to use them or will i need something else?

 

[e85_4g63]

You'll need a speed ecu or some way to compensate.. like an SAFC.

 

[PIMking]

You can find a Man. trans turbo ECU and then swap the injectors out and your set. You also have a smaller turbo.

 

[steve]

The base fuel pressure is also different, so putting 450 injectors in a auto car with the factory FPR is more injector than either ECU is expecting. You'll need to tune it regardless. If you put a MT FPR in your almost back the the same flow rate as the 390's were to start. (450cc @ 36.3 psi is about 411cc effective)

 

[toofast82]

I believe the 1g auto codes the 390cc injectors as 430cc . I would recommend either a manual trans and fuel regulator(auto 42-43psi manual 36-37psi) or a custom chip for it to properly compensate. Its probably not much of a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion as well. Just upgrade once and get some good size injectors (750+) and some tuning/logging. It will idle and drive like stock with the big injectors and have much higher hp threshold.

 

[Dsmj89]

Like steve said. If you get the 450's on make sure to have a tuning tool to readjust injector size. It doesn't matter if you get a manual ecu, you'll end up running stock-like fuel pressure or rich if you just put the injectors. Either way you will need to tune to re-adjust.

 

[steve]

I believe the 1g auto codes the 390cc injectors as 430cc

Nope, your just confused because people forgot to factor the pressure drop in when deciding that the stock MT injectors global meant 4A = 450cc. So the conversion factor in most peoples tunerpro xdf files is wrong.

 

[DSM_Nick]

I have the same 1g automatic talon, it pretty much got down scaled on everything. So we got screwed, but oh well. Upgrade to the 450cc injectors for sure, just put them in and they will put out the same as the 390cc injectors you had stock until it is tuned to do otherwise. Don't put in the other ecu cause it is too many problems and it will think you have a manual transmission plus other things.
No need to upgrade fuel though with the 13g turbo (pure power) that is on your car stock. I got rid of mine and put on a 16g. For simple upgrade you should do a turbo, injectors, fuel pump, and dsm link to tune it all. Then you will be good. Hope that helps

 

[jrohner]

I have the same 1g automatic talon, it pretty much got down scaled on everything. So we got screwed, but oh well. Upgrade to the 450cc injectors for sure, just put them in and they will put out the same as the 390cc injectors you had stock until it is tuned to do otherwise. Don't put in the other ecu cause it is too many problems and it will think you have a manual transmission plus other things.

The ecu doesn't know what tranny you have and it has no control over the tranny. The ecu is the same except for the very slight tune differences which don't really matter either way.

450's over the 390's won't really make a difference for you. Just wait to get some bigger injectors and something to tune with. If you put 450's in your car and change nothing else, it really won't matter much since your fuel trims will change and the car will be leaned back out anyways.

 

[DSM_Nick]

Good point, sorry. True I believe the PCM would be what I meant. That ECU would be different though. As Dsmj89 said, you will have to tune to re adjust it.

 

[jrohner]

The TCU is what controls the tranny, and its totally separate from the ECU.

 

[toofast82]

As far as the autos being downgraded, how long do the 5speed dsms last with a 14b/450cc injectors anyways? Most people upgrade pretty quick so at that point the advantage is useless. The cams difference is a decent drawback though that some may not upgrade.
For the OP, you will obviously need some type of logging/tuning device(s)
To me though 450cc at 36psi and 390cc at 43psi cant be much of a worthwhile cost/flow advantage

 

[Dsmj89]

cams difference is a decent drawback though that some may not upgrade.

Good observation, the auto cams i believe were meant for better low-end torque as well.

 

[jrohner]

I noticed a big difference when I replaced the 13g with a 14b on my talon before even turning the boost up. I usually can't tell a power increase, I didn't even notice much difference when I put the cams and intercooler on my 2g.

 

[toofast82]

yeah i upgraded from the 13g to 14b but i never ran higher than stock boost on the 13g. But as far as flow and size, the 14b is a decent size upgrade. But how long do you get a boner from a 14b? I just had mine laying around from an old 5spd car i had. As far as 1g and dsms(even n/t) period, the auto cams have the smallest lift/duration figures

 

[DSM_Nick]

The TCU is what controls the tranny, and its totally separate from the ECU.

Ok, I wasn't sure it was that way in our cars. Cause the ECU and TCU can be combined in some cases into one unit. Which would be the PCM. But I had no idea, so thanks. Oh so you had the 13g as well? Do you still have the auto transmission then?

 

[jrohner]

yeah i upgraded from the 13g to 14b but i never ran higher than stock boost on the 13g. But as far as flow and size, the 14b is a decent size upgrade. But how long do you get a boner from a 14b? I just had mine laying around from an old 5spd car i had. As far as 1g and dsms(even n/t) period, the auto cams have the smallest lift/duration figures

My 1g talon with the 14b goes pretty decent; I always run it at 20-21psi, lower than that and it feels pretty lame though.

 

[toofast82]

yeah mine moves alright with the 14b(big changes for the summer). but its no fun when you used to have a 5spd with 18g/hx35/60-1

 

[DSM_Nick]

My 1g talon with the 14b goes pretty decent; I always run it at 20-21psi, lower than that and it feels pretty lame though.

This with the automatic transmission as well? And did you do cams as well then? Cause I was thinking about putting in some cams from an AWD manual talon. Would it be worth it?

 

[toofast82]

as far as automatic sloppiness, check this out:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...iews/286205-diy-1g-clutchless-manual-mod.html
The 90' manual cams are said to be the worst of the 5spd cams, with 93-94' being the best i believe.
They should be worth a few topend ponies, though. Its probably worth it on a tight budget, but if you could afford, i would upgrade to an aftermarket set (fp,hks,bc)

 

[DSM_Nick]

Ok, yeah I will check that out. True, I will try to get some aftermarket cams, I was looking at some. Forget what degree though. But I am building it piece by piece and not too expensive, so I will look into those cams. Thanks

 

[jrohner]

I'd leave the cams alone until you just get some BC272's or something; I'd be surprised if the 'worst' to the 'best' stock cams there was more than a 5hp difference. I think I put Hyundai cams in the one 1g laser I sold, and stock that thing would wip my cousins 2g that had the a 14B with the boost turned up a little and had the muffler and cat removed. I hooked up a toggle switch to the BCS in the laser, one setting we had it at like 8psi and the other was 13-14; at the low setting it was dead even with the 2g and as soon as he flipped the switch he pulled away easily.

I remember people saying the lift was better/worse on different stock cams but I've measured the lift on a few different ones ranging from a hyundai elantra to my 98 gsx, and the lift wasn't really much different on any of them.

 

[Bud92gsx]

They did put smaller cams in the 1g auto's only. Not for you 2g guys, sorry..Yes they do make more lower end torque. But with an automatic, you need to get it moving some how. I have the 450's on my auto, but I cannot tell you if they make more power or not. Your better off keeping it stock, untill you start to upgrade.

 

[2nd_Gen_GSX]

you are going to have to invest in some sort of AFC to get to the full potential at sometime so might as well do it now.

 

[jrohner]

Skip the AFC and get a chip burner. Even if you don't have an EPROM ECU, the cost of one and a chip burner will probably not be more than an AFC. Far superior tuning, and easier to use and install.