3/S vs DSM

[BlackMount]

Seems there is this on-going war between DSMs and the 3000GT/Stealth (3/S) and I just wanted to respectively share some things about my thoughts on both sides; Tho it seems the DSM community is more against the 3/S community then the opposite. This is Fact with Opinion.

DSMs
-American/Japanese Manufactored car built by a Joint company of Mitsubishi and Chrysler.
-Manufactored in IL, USA, making it technically speaking not a import, making it American, just mostly engineered and built by a foreign company.

When the DSM was released it was released as a Sub Compact Sports Car. Turbo, AWD, 4 Cyl, its short and narrow wheel base, combined with AWD and 2.0L Turbo 4 cyl created a Good handling, fun to drive, reasonably priced, and respectively quick little car that go fair MPG and had fantastic power and spunk for its time and the power plant it was given.

Racing... the DSM has been in it all, Street, Drag, Rally, and even a hair amount of drifting. Its community seems to fall mainly on Drag racing, Lightweight AWD with more weight to loose and alot of power to be made, Currently holds world record for fastest 4 Cyl. Its a Suitable area for the car.

It is ultimately THE best bang for your buck car today, which makes up ita community of young men and some women from their teenage years to mid to late 30s, due to it being relatively affordable, and parts also low priced and easy to get ahold of and a Large market.

Other Trims and Models

1G 90-94
FWD Base, 1.8L SOHC 92hp
FWD mid model (GS,ES,RS) 1.8L SOHC 92hp, 2.0L DOHC 135hp.
FWD Top Model (GS, TSI, RS-Turbo) 2.0L DOHC Turbo 190hp
AWD Top model (GSX, TSI AWD, RS-Turbo AWD) 2.0L Turbl DOHC, 190hp

2G, 95-99
FWD Base 2.0L DOHC 145hp
FWD mid Model (RS,ESI, Spyder) 2.0L DOHC 145hp 2.4L SOHC 165hp
FWD top model (GST, TSI) 2.0L DOHC Turbo 210hp
AWD top model (GSX, TSI AWD) 2.0L DOHC Turbo 210hp

Database, Interwebz, & Fun.

There are hundreds of support articles, websites, DSMs,

Forums
DSM specific vendors
Videos
Articles
Etc

Its very quick and easy to find out anything and everything about DSMs.

How to videos to DSMs destroying 1000 Supras. High quality too.

This DSM is was but a tease of Mitsubishi Flexing their muscles under a tight shirt.

The 3000GT/Stealth

In 1987-1989 Mitsubish had a car known as the HSX/HSR. It was theur playground for testing Performance regarding Power Plant amd Electronics.

From this ultimately spawned the Mitsubishi GTO.

Now, the GTO wasn't just Mitsubishi flexing their muscles, they ripped their shirts off amd covered themselves in oil......###? Purhaps. Irrelevant tho.

The GTO was to be release as THE Mitsubishi Sports Car, designed to defeat and or match up against the Skyline, RX7 FD, Supra, NSx, Etc. Japanese Supercar.

The GTO got its name from the Galant GTO in the 70s whos name was inspired by the Ferrari GTO. In Japan the name remained GTO howver Mitsubishi was worried about their market and worried they sould have poor opinions about the name matching up woth Pontiacs GTO and Ferraris GTO. So ultimately they changed the name to 3000GT.

Dodge quickly wanted a piece of the action and demanded they were cut a piece... up until this point all 3000GTs were to be built as a AWD only car. In Japan and few bother countries their is the GTO (SL) and the GTO MR (VR4) the SL equivilent of the GTO was still AWD but Natrually aspirated. Dodge said what about our cheap americans? And release a FWD version of the 3/S containing the Beefy N/A DOHC 3.0L v6 and the slow, sluggish, yet indestructible SOHC V6 in the Stealth only.

(More to come tomorrow)

 

[Boostit]

I wasn't aware of a war between the 2..

 

[Mrdiamondstars]

Kind of, on the 3/S forums I remember seeing some guys talking about how they can never beat dsm's because of weight issues

 

[LandoAWD]

I wasn't aware of a war between the 2..

 

[cl1ckclack]

this thread is stupid... there is no conflict between the two...

 

[omega260]

How did the 3s do? I remember watching that BMI video of the FD vs Supra vs Skyrine and it seemed to do okay. I feel like they are understeer machines?

 

[BlackMount]

Its not a matter of whos faster, its a matter of misconception and false information thats getting to me and every dsm guy i talk to hates the cars (most dsm guys) and the reasons they all give r false, ignorant, or just misinformed.

The 3000GT continued.

Information, Community, records.

We keep to our selves. The reason u dont see or hear alot about fast 3000GTs is not because they dont exsist; but that wewe only talk about it amongst our selves... there r tons of 9 and 10 second 3/S and tons of 1000+whp 3/S. We just dont parade ourselves around. Rarely anyone video tapes a 3/S vs a liter bike, not because it doesnt happen, they just dont care to show it to the world example via Youtube... i personally hate that portion.

Even searching its hard to find threads or conversations of related topics...There are 2 main sites. 3sgto, and 3si. Has alot of newbs and not very hardcore/smart 3/s guys on there, there is some but due to some affairs that happened awhile back and the owners of 3si being tards, most of the big 3/s people/gurus left to create/join a new site 3sgto. Information is still limited between these sites and heres why... Membership is a big thing between th two... 3sgto also has a very active chat box which allows us to talk amongst r selves or quickly diagnose problems and just talk about mainevents, vs creating hundreds of thousands of BS threads that no one cares about much like this one.

There is one more Big reason. There is a site called 3STech i believe. Use to be u had to apply to get into the site, or be invited and approved. Now its 100% invite. This is where all the good shit is and all the ideas for breakthroughs and related things r talked about, debated, researched, etc. It is 100% invite and if ## a Nobody or just a jackass u will never even see the front page of the site. Its full of lots of good shit tho.

Heres some info to clear the clouds of BS floating around


Specs.
275hp-320hp DOHC-Twin Turbo 3.0L
220hp-222hp DOHC 3.0L
160hp SOHC 3.0L

FWD N/A
AWD N/A
AWD TT

5 speed fwd
5 speed awd
6 speed awd

FWD weight 3100-3500lbs
AWD weight 3600-4300lbs

STOCK 1/4 mile Records
12.8 (AWD TT)
14.5 (FWD N/A

Max HP records
3.0L DOHC N/A (229whp)
3.6L DOHC Twin Turbo (1348whp @ 40 PSI) (Now claiming 1600hp+ but no dyno to back it up)

1/4 mile. First I'm going to say this. These cars were not built for straight line, they r made for High Speed Handling over all. The record is only in the 8s with about 1000ish hp. Unsure tho. The 1348whp car is nelson...he cant drive + his car isnt gutted or anything of the sort. His goal was a retarded fast street car and HP king not a 1/4 king.. he ran a 9.18 on less then half the boost he dynod with (18 psi) and the addition of a Auto Trans since he cant drive very well. In short he has the most hp but is a poor example of what our cars do in the 1/4.

Road Racing. These cars Stock and gutted are rediculous. They handle fantastically, yes off the factory floor they have some weight, but feel very Agile when behind the wheel (assuming everything works properly) they have Active Aero which does provide Noticeable Downforce when engaged. They did remove this in later years but restyled the car to make up for it, specifically the 99 VR4, the wing provides down force as well so it is functional.. it is made for major highspeed more then anything cause thats when it really starts doing its job.
The ECS (Electronically Controlled Suspension) basically just Computer Controlled Dampening, this was beautiful addition to the car. My SL had it... the computer when set on tour, automatically adjusts stiffness based on your driving, and has 3 different settings (Soft, Med, Hard) Drive it hard enough, and it will automatically engage sport mode if u dont already slect it with the button which makes that feature great for if u turn on a rough road or have to go over speed bumps. When u slecet sport mode, it automatically sets everything on Hard, it triples the rates of the shocks. They become very very stiff about as stiff as mildly set coilovers like mine. U can feel the improvement in handling instantly, it is fantastic.
the cars also came equipped with fairly Large Rotors and 4 Piston Calipers that work fanastically...almost too well.

(FWDs did not have Active Aero, They had ECS and only got Dual Piston Calipers and slightly smaller rotors vs 4 Piston.)

 

[OSXer]

It sure sounds like you walk around with a chip on your shoulder.

 

[ofgofg]

AWD NA was not a USA model, but I thought the stealth cars were made here in the states? If so, then wouldnt it be considered a dsm?

 

[BlackMount]

Weight. 3000GTs arent actually that heavy... DSMs r just fairly light, alot of high end sports cars/even super cars weigh close to the same or more... do u have an idea how much a GTR weighs? Old and New?

Why r they heavy? Because they r Wide and long? Not really

Heres where the Weight comes from.

VR4 3800-4300lbs
AWD
V6
ECS
4 Piston Calipers and Upgraded Rotors.
Twin Turbos
Twin Intercoolers
Active Aero
Active Exhaust (basically cutouts that reroute ## exhaust)
Digital A/C, 100% Computer controlled which means u have several electric motors changing vents and valves.
(In early years) CD/Tape Player with CD portion mounted in trunk, about the size of older Xbox.
Leather Interior with 10 way adjustible electric seats
Power Defrost side mirrors
Power Windows,
a VERY large a/c compressor for A/C thatll give u frost bite in a hurry.
Dual Exhaust in General tis heavy
17x8.5 Wheels
18x8.5 Wheels.
20 Gallon Gas Tank.

Most of that weight, a good 1000lbs ish at most can be removed just by replacing it with nice aftermarket parts that will improve handling and HP anyways. ESPECIALLY THAT EXHAUST.

FWD 2900-3500lbs
Same things as AWD minus Active Exhaust, Active Aero, and Twin Turbos and related stuff.
Dual Exhaust is still very heavy.
3.0L V6 Cast Iron Block.
ECS,
Power Everything
Leather,
etc.
20 Gallon Gas tank

My SL weighed 3480lbs first time i got it when i went over a scale. Bonestock

After installing of coilovers, single 3" exhaust, test pipe, downpipe, intake, etc.

Car weighed 3140lbs.

With me in it and half tank of gas both times (10 gallons and i weigh 177lbs)
with me out of it and bone dry tank of gas. Easily 2800lbs or less.
and i have the SL, the Heaviest FWD. Still have all my leather and gadgets.

Big HP.

Now if u strip down a 6G72TT and 4G63T. And compare everything side by side... u will see very quickly, everything is enginnered exactly the same, timing, internals, oil squirters, pumps, heads. They all r the exact same as 4G63T just in V6 form or vice versa. These engines can make just as much if not MORE HP (due to larger displacement and ability to stroke up to 4.1L) as the 4G63. Both r fantastic engines that make oodles of HP easily and reliabily...

How ever the biggest reason no one has done this yet is money. 3/S is expensive...its getting cheaper now hence why the market is coming back but instead of spending 30K to make 800-1200 reliable hp like u might on a DSM. Ull be spending 45-60k on a 3000GT to make the same hp. A mint condition spyder or 99 VR4 with less then 40k miles still goes for up to 20,000$ some more some less. I see 91-93s go for 8-10k all day long. Another thing that benefits us is the strength of our stock cranks, certian years of the 3/S was gifted with a very strong stock crank. I cant think of any non stroker people who made hi hp that didnt use stock forged crank , 800hp i know is about what they have lasted, i think more honestly

Thats all for now, comment,hate, sneeze, do whatever. I made this mainly cause i was bored. Might add more later.

Trims

STEALTH
1G 91-93
Base, 3.0L SOHC, 160hp
Mid model ES, R/T 3.0L SOHC 160hp, 3.0L DOHC 220hp
Top model, R/T TT AWD, Twin Turbo, 3.0L DOHC 295hp

2G 94-96
Base, 3.0L SOHC, 160hp
Mid model ES, R/T 3.0L SOHC 160hp, 3.0L DOHC 222hp
Top model, R/T TT AWD, Twin Turbo, 3.0L DOHC 320hp

3000GT/GTO
1G 91-93

Base, 3.0) DOHC 220hp
Mid model SL/MR 3.0L DOHC 220hp
Top model,VR4/MR TT, Twin Turbo, 3.0L DOHC 276-295hp

2G 94-98

Base, 3.0 DOHC 221hp 1997-98 got SOHC 160hp in America.
Mid model SL/MR 3.0L DOHC 221hp
Top model,VR4/MR TT, Twin Turbo, 3.0L DOHC 276-320hp

3G 1999

Base, 3.0 DOHC 221hp (Only SOHC 160hp in America.)
Mid model SL/MR 3.0L DOHC 221hp
Top model,VR4/MR TT, Twin Turbo, 3.0L DOHC 276-320hp

Origin Confusion... alot of people referr to a 3/S as a DSM. It is not. Some people on both sides will bi*** slap u for saying such a name

Both the 3000GT/GTO AND the Stealth were designed, Manufactored and shipped overseas from Negoya Japan. All Chrysler did was demand a piece of the action, and add a very slow fwd sohc base model option, and threw badges on it. Other then the badges and name on the stealth not a single thing is chrysler/American about these cars making them a genuine Import

 

[CLeMMeR]

I wouldn't even want to compare these two. I love them both but it's comparing apples and oranges. You have a 4banger Turbo and a v6 TT. They're like brothers mostly, the older obviously the 3s. Now the 3s is considered, in some insurances, an entry level supercar like a Skyline and Supras' while a DSM is not. It's just irrelevant to actually have a hard fact based argument on which is more superior. There's just no argument here

 

[BlackMount]

Thats what i try to get out. Theyvare not compareable they r two completely different cars.

 

[cl1ckclack]

OP, why are you here spouting all of this information about the 3kgts?

 

[BlackMount]

Bcuz race car.

Boredum, conversation starter. something to do.

 

[CLeMMeR]

True story. Anyywayyyss. Hmm we could always change this into a "How DSMs may match up to 3s,Supras,Skylines thread"

Jk that sounds like not a great idea, I dunno

 

[CLeMMeR]

By the way there's a beautiful black 99 VR4 that lives in my area. Never got to meet the guy though

 

[BlackMount]

GZP is up there in PA nd they r the largest dealer in 3/S stock parts, and they have bought, sold, flipped, tradded, partted out thousands of them... they also do tuning and has awd dyno. Some dsm stuff is in there too.

 

[cl1ckclack]

dizzum > 3kGT

 

[3kgt2nv]

We keep to our selves. The reason u dont see or hear alot about fast 3000GTs is not because they dont exsist; but that wewe only talk about it amongst our selves... there r tons of 9 and 10 second 3/S and tons of 1000+whp 3/S.

i think you better recheck you facts here.

there are maybe 5-10 1000+ hp cars
and maybe 3 - 5 that have gone 9sec

I have owned a 3000gt vr4 since 1999 and have followed the community very closely and I have to say that your dead wrong about your estimates of what is out there power and speed wise that is at least confirmed.

I have been to 3 of the national gatherings and several of the north east gatherings and a member of 3si since before it was a real forum.

and as far as stripping 1000 pounds off easy I would suggest you do this before you talk about it because even swiss cheesing the frame and running it gutted on aluminum rims most people can only get them to 3100-3200 pounds.

what i deleted to get mine to 3100
interior
trunk gutted
fuel cell
stock suspension
stock hood
stock driveshaft
no ac
no abs
no ps
crash bars removed
subframe rails removed
no stereo
no speakers
wiring harness hacked
cf sunroof panel
no wing
stock rims and tires

all my car was when i was done was a shell with a seat.

to replace all that stuff with lightweight parts as you said cost about 8-10k to shave about 800 pounds

even snake skinners 8 second car was only 900-1000 pounds lighter and his car was totally stripped to get speed.

Before you start spouting facts about 3's i suggest you actually have more info to back up your statements. other than production facts that you can read on wikipedia.

A mint condition spyder or 99 VR4 with less then 40k miles still goes for up to 20,000$ some more some less. I see 91-93s go for 8-10k

where it is true that the 99 and spyders are holding their value I just bought a 91 green(blah) vr4 in good running condition that has a few mods for 1500.

maybe a fully built 1g 3k for 8k but not a stock one.

hell billvr4 sold a dr900 car with a full cianci kit and 99 conversion and fresh paint for 12k

 

[cl1ckclack]

i think you better recheck you facts here.

there are maybe 5-10 1000+ hp cars
and maybe 3 - 5 that have gone 9sec

I have owned a 3000gt vr4 since 1999 and have followed the community very closely and I have to say that your dead wrong about your estimates of what is out there power and speed wise that is at least confirmed.

I have been to 3 of the national gatherings and several of the north east gatherings and a member of 3si since before it was a real forum.

and as far as stripping 1000 pounds off easy I would suggest you do this before you talk about it because even swiss cheesing the frame and running it gutted on aluminum rims most people can only get them to 3100-3200 pounds.

what i deleted to get mine to 3100
interior
trunk gutted
fuel cell
stock suspension
stock hood
stock driveshaft
no ac
no abs
no ps
crash bars removed
subframe rails removed
no stereo
no speakers
wiring harness hacked
cf sunroof panel
no wing
stock rims and tires

all my car was when i was done was a shell with a seat.

to replace all that stuff with lightweight parts as you said cost about 8-10k to shave about 800 pounds

even snake skinners 8 second car was only 900-1000 pounds lighter and his car was totally stripped to get speed.

Before you start spouting facts about 3's i suggest you actually have more info to back up your statements. other than production facts that you can read on wikipedia.

hahahahahahahahah!

yes!

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

I wasn't aware of a war between the 2..

this thread is stupid... there is no conflict between the two...

Shit's gettin deep... fast. Dsms have been doing more, going faster, and for much less money than you can with a 3k and that's the bottom line. It's what dsms do best... Go fast for dirty cheap!

 

[3kgt2nv]

Shit's gettin deep... fast. Dsms have been doing more, going faster, and for much less money than you can with a 3k and that's the bottom line. It's what dsms do best... Go fast for dirty cheap!

why i got a dsm instead of building another 3s. I have a friend that has a 3.5 stroker with twin pte 5857's and he is hopeing to make 750-850 with a good tune at 26 psi and run a low to mid 10sec pass. total cost of his build about 15-20k

With my dsm i am hoping for about 500hp on a hx40 running 32 psi on a built motor and a stripped car to run the same track times. total cost of investment including the car 5-6k

I had spent 60+k on my 94 3kvr4 when i got rid of it due to a head gasket issue from one of the top shops.

now i appreciate them and still think they are one of the most gorgeous cars from the 90's hands down.

god the more i read this thread the more crap i find

GZP is up there in PA nd they r the largest dealer in 3/S stock parts, and they have bought, sold, flipped, tradded, partted out thousands of them... they also do tuning and has awd dyno. Some dsm stuff is in there too.

once Again mitoska1977 or whatever his screen name is is the largest stock parts vendor. gzp does part out cars but are mainly just has a shop and a reputation of not finishing work when promised.(have no personal dealings with them but i have read so many threads about work not being finished)

for anyone that is also in the 3s world the main shops in order i would recommend
3sx(provides all parts and tuning)
pampena motorsports (master tuner and generally accepted god among 3s owners he is the 3/s version of shep)
dynamic racing(shop holds the record for only 3s in the 8's)
ips (slow shipping but offers cheapish pricing)

 

[TunaTalon]

Shit's gettin deep... fast. Dsms have been doing more, going faster, and for much less money than you can with a 3k and that's the bottom line. It's what dsms do best... Go fast for dirty cheap!

In 1991 I picked an AWD Talon to buy over a new Dodge Stealth because it cost less and went faster.

Now after 21 years everything is different but nothing has changed. My second AWD Talon is even faster and (if I sold it) certainly cheaper.

 

[cl1ckclack]

Shit's gettin deep... fast. Dsms have been doing more, going faster, and for much less money than you can with a 3k and that's the bottom line. It's what dsms do best... Go fast for dirty cheap!

like i said... DSM > 3kgt!

 

[3kgt2nv]

to me both have their place. the 3s was a flagship grand touring car where the dsm was designed to appeal as a fast compact.

a grand touring car because of the comfort is designed to be sporty to drive. not a rocketship. once it was figured out that the dsm was a better platform for modding companies shied away from the 3/s in favor of the dsm. Thats why there are alot more highly modded dsm's out there. Even the big Japanese performance companies gave up on the 3'/s once they saw what the American market was doing.

this did 2 things.
1. made it very price to mod a 3/s since no mass produced parts were available.

2. kept them mostly unmolested and many are still single owner cars.