21psi, 93 octane, 0 knock, 24 timing, what next?

[laser92awd]

OK, so if I went from 22 to 25 without adding excessive knock, that's good isn't it? Should I keep bumping it up? Try for 10? 12? 15? My EGT's are still maxing out around 800C and everything else looks good.

Simplified: the more timing I can get, the more power I will get, right? What kind of timing numbers do the REALLY fast cars get?

Jonathan

 

[92TsiTalon]

dont know about the timing numbers that realy fast cars get just b/c i dont have a really fast car.

your strategy is correct though...get as much as you can while your engine responds favorably. if you bump up the timing more and your knock stays low, its all gravy. you obviously know what *good* engine readings are so just try to stay close.

 

[tanner261]

Sounds like you are on the right track. I'm just surprised that you aren't seeing any knock at all as it seems you are maxing out your setup on pump gas. Does the car feel faster? How old is your knock sensor?

Is your boost still falling off in the upper RPMs? This could explain why you aren't seeing any knock. Charge air temps from a 16G at 22+ psi are pretty hot.

If I were you I'd leave it where it is now and wait to tune for more power once you fill up with race fuel. I'd just be careful trying to max out a pump gas setup.

 

[tanner261]

I did just see your post on water injection, so now I see why you aren't getting any knock.

A few of the ways you can increase power at this point is to fix the boost falling off and upgrade camshafts. Good Luck.

 

[laser92awd]

I'm not sure if it is the stock BOV or the TB seals causing the pressure drop, but at least that gives me something to do.

 

[92TsiTalon]

i didnt even think about that...the stock bov opens up at something like 21 psi. of course, your kind of going out of the effieciency of that turbo, even with water injection. the water injection keeps the intake temps somewhat in check, but the compressor wheel is still working its a$$ off trying to spin at however many tens of thousands of rpms. the mitsu cartridges in the tdo5's arent that great at upper rpms. this could be the prob but that's really going out on a limb to describe what's happening. the truth is, i really dont see why you arent getting better times....other than cranking the timing or.......which cams do you have?

 

[laser92awd]

I'm running stock cams.

So maybe for now I could set the boost to 21 (or wherever the stock BOV can hold), advance the timing a little more, and tune the system where my timing / knock / egt's are still good. Then before I get ready to go to the track I'll fix the BOV (Dejon Tool fix sounds great to me) add race gas, and crank the boost up.

Also, I did some research on the dump tubes. Boy I wish I could hear one. I don't have boost creep, so I'd be looking at it strictly from a performance perspective. When I had my downpipe off one time I cranked up the car and it was L O U D. I wouldn't want it to be anywhere near that loud or it would actually keep me from going WOT (could be a good thing, I guess...) I do like how it is something completely passive on the car - it wouldn't activate until full boost under WOT - fits the whole "stealth mode" of my car. You know, sidemount, stock appearing, but gobs of power.


Jonathan

 

[92TsiTalon]

well, technically a dump tube would still make sound even at idle. at idle, the wastegate flapper is completely open and closes when the wastegate recieves the right vacuum to close any given amount. it will be louder at WOT of course because the flapper would be almost closed and there is immense pressure behind it, causing that pissed off woodland creature/jet engine sound. ive heard a 400whp car with a thermal exhaust system (already loud) fly by me, but all i could here was the external wastegate screaming away.

if you can, try to get the greddy type-r or hks wastegate. i guess messing with the stock one would work, but the aftermarket ones work better. just a thought, but the plan sounds good. keep us posted as to how it performs when you test these things out. this could prove to be a very helpful thread for supertuning these cars.

 

[laser92awd]

Yeah, my goal all along has been to go as far as I can with my setup. There are some things I've tried to avoid though, such as a frontmount (total loss of stealth mode), and cams (every Cavalier and V6 Camaro in town would try to race me). And I've still got all the creature comforts - full interior, a/c, power steering. You know I'm trying to avoid turning it into a Honda.

Jonathan

 

[92TsiTalon]

go to dejontool, they have a new smic from spearco that has a 60% larger surface area, but isnt supposed to have the same fitment problems as the supra smic (although the supra smic would be a great upgrade). maybe you could try the dual smic setup. that setup is supposed to support 330whp. THAT might help you get some extra upper rpm power at 21 psi.

of course, i had this really cool idea that i might try. it would only be for short periods of time like in a run at the strip.

1. Relocate the battery to the hatch.

2. Fashion a long metal case to fit around about a foot and a half section of the uicp and weld it to the pipe.

3. Make it so that the top of the case is a bolt down lid with a reusable gasket.

4. When it comes to racing at the strip (or street), fill the inside of the case with ice or dry ice, whichever you choose.

That should result in lower intake temps (significantly) and no pressure drop to speak of. This used in conjunction with the intercooler already being used and you have intake air that is a lot more dense. im thinking about testing this with intake temp. sensors before the intercooler, after the intercooler, and after the ice box to see how well it works. If it was sealed right, once the ice melted, it could *temporarily* be used as an air to water intercooler (until the air intake temp reached the same temp as the water) in which case you could simply change the water out for ice again. What do you guys think? Lemme know.

 

[92TsiTalon]

oh, my bad. dejontool rated the dual smic setup to ALLOW up to 500hp and they rated the spearco smic at 335hp. sorry for the misinformation

 

[laser92awd]

I already have an upgraded Alamo sidemount, although I don't know what it is rated at. I have heard of people using ice to cool their intake and it supposedly really works, especially to cool the car back down between 1/4 passes.

Jonathan

 

[Silent2g]

laser, your timing is fine.
mines set at 8 degrees and getting maybe 3 knock counts on toe in, thats in {water injection is fun!!}
the datalogger sees the stock timing where its preset at.
which is 5 i believe
you have to add three ontop of that for the total amount of advance
at the top end of 4th im seeing 25 degrees or more depending on temps. so in reality its closer to 28 degrees total advance.

there is only so much timing i would throw at a car before it scares me. and i believe im at it right now

when knock hits 5, the ecu stablizes the timing.
when it hits 7 it pulls timing
when it hits 12, it activates the bcs to pull boost.

stay below 5 and your cool

 

[laser92awd]

Silent2g,

What you said makes good sense. Just curious - I have an HKS EVC. which I believe the wiring harness with the tab that connects to the top of the stock air filter gets disconnected completely. Is that for the BCS? Does an EVC disable the BCS? I know I've gotten more than 12 knock before and don't remember my boost being pulled.

Thanks!

Jonathan

 

[Silent2g]

when you put on a aftermarket boost controller, pull the vacuum lines from the bcs, you don't use that anymore
i have an hks evc ez in my 90. touchy lil bastard
i have nothing to do with the bcs anymore, its hanging somewhere in the car, leave it connected to the harness.

when you hook up a knock light, most people use the bcs for some odd reason, at 12, it lights up, thats when the bcs is activated, it may or may not pull boost. anything above 12 it will pull it. i know this for a fact, well at least on my car it does.

go to hks's web site, they have instructions for a internal gate type turbo, with controller.

i tapped mine at the bov line, the pressure side of the turbo {the nipple off the outlet pipe} and the other goes to the wastegate. keep the lines as short as possible. mine aren't the best in shortness, but it works.

if you have any more questions lemmie know. the stepping motors are all the same for hks's older style ebc's

 

[laser92awd]

Maybe I should start a new thread on this, but since we're talking about it:

Is it possible my BCS is stuck in the "activated" position somehow, limiting boost ALL the time?

Reason I ask is I completely turned off and unplugged my EVC today, which should have taken me to stock boost (10.5 I believe). But instead I only got 7.5. I disconnected the wastegate hose and pumped air into it with a hand pump/gauge, and verified it is physically opening fully at 10.5psi, so the wastegate & arm are working fine.

The EVC I have allows you to go to 300% of stock, which takes me to 22.5psi based on 7.5, which is a tiny bit more than I am trying to run right now so I had not had an issue with this. But if I try to go to 23 or 24psi (at the track) I won't be able to! I need that 10.5psi base to be able to get enough boost out of my EVC.

Is my BCS acting up? I haven't looked at it in years (had no need to), all I remember is that the vacuum hose is disconnected and I think I wrapped the connector inside a plastic bag since it wasn't plugged into anything (does that sound right?)

When I tap "boost control solenoid" on my pocketlogger I can't hear anything happening.

Thanks!

 

[Silent2g]

get rid of the bcs all together. do not use it when running an aftermarket boost controller.

the wastegate actuator is set to at least 8 psi, i know mine is when i shut it off.

take the bcs out of the picture all together. leave it plugs up to the harness, no vacuum lines. its not needed anymore

 

[laser92awd]

So maybe it is the wastegate actuator (not the BCS) limiting my baseline boost? Something is clearly preventing me from pulling more than 7.5psi with my EVC switched off and I don't know what it is.

What I meant about blowing air into the wastegate hose is that the wastegate did not open to it's full open positiony until I pumped 10 to 10.5psi into the hose. That's what I remember my stock boost being. Shouldn't I still be able to get that?

After my last message I had an idea - I ran out and turned my EVC on, and set my LOW setting to the lowest it would go in case the EVC needed to be on. Made a quick run, and NOPE, still only 7.5psi with the EVC turned on. I remember reading you can't use a boost controller to go lower than stock boost. Isn't stock boost 10.5 on 1G's?

Sorry I don't remember more details on my setup, it's been almost 10 years since I installed my EVC!

Thanks,
Jonathan

 

[laser92awd]

OK, I just went and re-read my old information and the 1000 questions stuff about the BCS.

It seems the stock wastegate is set to approximately 7psi. (So my 10psi air pump testing must have been flawed). The BCS works as a bleeder system. When the BCS is open, the valve opens and a measured amount of air is bled causing the wastegate to not fully open as quick, giving the stock car 10.5psi. (Basically same principle as a boost controller).

However, the EVC manual says "if the car is equipped with a boost control solenoid, it must be removed".

Solenoid off / removed = stock 7psi.

So I guess the 7psi I am getting is right because the BCS system is no longer hooked up.

And the old EVC only allows raising boost 300% over stock (7 X 300% = 21psi).

I see the EVC III (and I presume all newer models) let you go to at least 2 bar (30psi) regardless of stock boost.

So I think the answer to my question is that for me to ever see 24psi at the track I will need to replace my EVC.

Does anybody know what would happen if I hooked the bleeder system in line with the EVC? 10.5psi X 300% = 31.5psi (way more than I'll ever need).

I know with the BCS active the ECU can lower my boost if I get bad knock. Why would that be bad? Is there some reason the EVC can't operate properly with the BCS installed?

Jonathan

 

[Silent2g]

the bcs is a boost controller in itself
thats all it does is control boost
when you put an ebc or mbc on, you MUST get rid of it because the two will conflict with each other.
with my evc ez off, i run 8 psi. no biggie, use it on road trips like that, saves gas.
that doesn't bother me, the evc ez is capable of running over 30 psi with an external gate.

take all the vacuum lines off the evc stepping motor, get rid of the bcs, then redo the vacuum lines without the bcs in the picture.