ECMlink 1G Tuning Help!

[Cj Anderson]

I have a 1992 1GB TSI I need help with getting a base tune to be able to drive the car. I'm looking to have a E-tune or English Racing tune done to the car but I need to do a break-in and work the bugs before I pay to have it tuned.

I made a log running the car to operating temp then set the base timing. Fuel PSI is at 37psi, I'm running the wideband in the downpipe and using narrow band simulation. Can some one please look at my log and let me know if they see anything weird with the settings or the tune?

The car still seems to run pretty rough at idle and unfortunately I'm still learning ECMLink and tuning in general. Any tips or trick or things I should log would be super helpful! Sadly every shop I called in my local area bushed me off for have a old DSM and ECMLink they were not able to provide me with any help.

 

[jed344]

You do not have the MAP sensor set for pin assignments. Go into ECU inputs and then under BARO change from factory/none to what your MAP sensor is and save the assignment. Then be sure you also set it to capture the values from the MAP sensor. I am assuming BARO input is what you're using as I see ECU side is set for the MAP sensor just not data logging PC side. This way it will show up in the log and we can see what the map sensor is reading. If you also have a intake temp sensor make sure you set this up too.

Either run the TPS adjust tool or set it yourself. The TPS voltage is to low at idle.
There are many other things but first make sure the MAP sensor is logging.

Your wideband in the log acted very strange until 600+ seconds in. Essentially the log said max lean until then. When simulating front O2 based off the wideband this will throw everything way out of wack.
If I then am to trust the wide band reading towards end of the log where it started acting more normal. The car is very lean at idle. But based off what the logged wideband said for most of the log I have a hard time trusting what it is saying.

 

[Cj Anderson]

Hey @jed344 I appreciate you looking at my log.

I changed my pin settings to show Intake Temp and Baro and they show up on the log now. Before I ran the car I adjusted the TPS to what the book called for, what should I adjust the TPS volts to?

I just got off the phone with Innovate and they suggested I recalibrate the O2 again, it sounds like the O2 heating cycle didn't work when i logged this. I'm going to recalibrate the O2 and try to feel if it gets warm and log again. If that doesn't work he thinks the gauge is not heating the O2 or its a bad O2.

 

[Cj Anderson]

Ok so I recalibrate the O2 and checked to make sure its heating up and it is. I adjusted the TPS volts to .63 at the throttle body. I attached two logs the first log is a cold start to warm up and the second log is a warm engine and some throttle movement. I checked Timing again and its correct. Please let me know what you think.

 

[Cj Anderson]

Hello guys! I hope to get some help getting my car running correctly before I take it to English racing for a tune.

I've had a series of nightmares getting this car to run but it finally runs and drives now. https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-eagle-talon-has-fuel-and-spark-will-not-start.545887

I took a log of its first test drive around town. Can someone please give me some Insight on what things I need to fix or adjust?

I already fixed the boost leaks, and I used a bypass plate to remove the FIAV. This is a fresh rebuild with almost all new parts under the hood.

 

[steve]

I'm not that up to speed on setting up ECMLink for SD but there are several outstanding questions I have about what you have.

Do you know why and what you've done to each modified direct access table?

I'd turn off the "disable idle switch while moving" and "Simulate idle switch from TPS" if your IPS is working from the RPM/TPS Tab. I also don't see any need to "Enable TPS adjustments" with the current settings.

I don't know why you would Enable MAF Clamp right now. Same for idle air clamp.
You're locked in open loop.

The Baro input is locked and I don't know how to log and see the actual MAP sensor readings the way it's set up.

Was there something specific you wanted us to look for in the log?

 

[Cj Anderson]

To be honest I’ve been racking my brain on trying to get this car to run for the past year I start messing with settings to make it idle and drive. What ever combo I have selected made it run I need help with what should actually be selected. I’m having issues with running in closed loop and the car won’t idle at all. I’ve adjust the biss 100 times and still runs like crap and stalls but open loop runs ok. So really I just need help sorting some things out. I’m always referring to ECMlink website but nothing I do makes the car run better. I’ve looked at 100’s of form post and some info is good but most don’t relate. I just need an outsider to look at what I having going and call me an idiot and steering me in the right direction so I can actually get some seat time and start learning.

 

[jed344]

I do not off hand have the open loop threshold values for a 1g. I see they are modified this will control how long or when open loop vs closed loop. Your STFTandO2feedback is modified heavily. I apologize for it being 1 word and strange capital vs lower case letters. This is how it shows in direct accesses. I do not again have the stock 1g settings for this but it is modified and i suspect quite heavily just by looking. This as simple as i can explain is how reactive the front o2 sensor effect the fuel trim. How quickly it will effect and how much it effects it. This is usually modified for if say the stock front o2 sensor is moved farther down stream or if there is a hood or bumper dump. I see you are simulating front o2. This likely is not effecting anything but i see you have a 40 second delay in link. This can be lowered as most will be heated within 10 seconds. You have the car locked in open loop in the misc tab. This means car will never ever go closed loop. I am not sure if enable idle air clamp will effect a Speed density car but i have never came across a case that it is needed with a SD car i tuned. Some may disagree but i always simulate idle switch based off tps and then make sure the tps is set correctly. The disable idle SW while moving essentially kills injector pulse or leaves it pulsing when in deceleration in gear. Most times i have the idle SW enable while moving as it helps the car decelerate in gear and also stops any pops from the exhaust. I again do not know if this would effect a car with SD operation enabled but no reason for MAF clamp to be enabled.

Now beyond all this. When i look at idle areas with the car warm i see ISC postion is zero, and the idle rpm is higher then target. This means the biss is open to far isc has already closed all it can to bring it down. Target 30-40 isc position at warm idle. Close the biss screw some to get ISC position into the correct area. Your battery voltage looks low at idle areas too but that is not the more major of issues. I see by vacuum pulled this looks like factory cam car. Your air flow per rev then looks far to high. .25 gm/rev is a good target for stock cam car.

 

[We're on Boost]

I’m having issues with running in closed loop and the car won’t idle at all. I’ve adjust the biss 100 times and still runs like crap and stalls but open loop runs ok.

I don't understand why your car runs bad in closed loop. Maybe it's stumbling on Coasting Fuel Cut?

Open loop does prevent Coasting Fuel Cut. Your injectors will never shut off. But in closed loop you can raise the rpm at which coasting fuel cut ends (where fuel comes back on) by however much you want, and that should be just about as good. That is done on the RPM/TPS tab with Coasting FC Offset. You could put 1000 in that blank where you have 0 now. That should raise it to an rpm where it won't muck anything up.

Your LC1 AFRs right now (latest log) are leaner than stoic in most of the low LoadFactor areas where closed loop would operate. If you let closed loop operate you'll have Fuel Trims that should fix those too lean areas. Well it should override, which is not exactly fixing. Anyway I'd be interested in seeing a log where you've got 1000 in the Coasting FC Offset blank, and "Lock in open loop mode" turned off, and "Disable idle switch while moving" turned off. The Jan 25 log is a good length, nice and long so we can see a large variety of conditions, and how it changes after things have been hot for a while.

Your LC1 AFRs in the areas with higher LoadFactor (like over about 0.8 usually) look reasonable. In those areas you'll be in open loop anyway if you are allowing closed loop to operate. Well, you can tweak the thresholds like Jed mentioned but it would be around in there.

Later in the log like at around 870 sec, it looks like you are having the runaway idle speed problem that is caused by the high ignition timing numbers in the stock 1g timing tables at low loads and low rpms, when your idle speed is higher than stock. And the ISC isn't even closing down to 0 there, it's at 33. Closed loop might improve that, I don't know. But even in closed loop you will probably have runaway idle due to high timing if you don't reduce the timing numbers in about the first 21 cells. Here's what I use in my first 21 cells, on both the Max-octane and Min-octane timing maps:

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[Cj Anderson]

@We're on Boost I adjusted my setting that @jed344 suggested and I drove the car again on close loop and the car started to idle better and I was able to drive around town just fine. The car would drop rpm once in a while coming to a stop but not enough to kill the car. Unfortunately the car blew a vacuum hose while driving so I was forced to go home while driving home the 32 year old radiator top hose nipple broke off. I was logging the drive and in the mix of issues I never saved the log before my laptop died. I’m waiting on a new mishimoto radiator to show up. Once the cars up and running I’ll adjust my setting you recommended and get a good log of that drive and see what happens. I really appreciate you both helping with this issues. I feel like this project has been cursed with road blocks. So thank you guys. I don’t think I’ll see any parts for about a week but I hope it shows up before the weekend!

 

[We're on Boost]

@We're on Boost I adjusted my setting that @jed344 suggested and I drove the car again on close loop and the car started to idle better and I was able to drive around town just fine. The car would drop rpm once in a while coming to a stop but not enough to kill the car....

That sounds good so far! And you probably needed a new radiator anyway .
Jed suggested a few setting changes, what settings did you change exactly?

 

[Cj Anderson]

Haha I’ve always planned on replacing the radiator but I was hoping it would last more than 50 miles on the new motor . I budgeted for anyways so no big deal.

I turn off the “disable idle switch while moving” and "Simulate idle switch from TPS", "Enable TPS adjustments", “Enable MAF Clamp”, “Idle air clamp” and turned off open loop lock. I went back and adjusted the TPS voltage to .63 again. For some reason when I connect to the car the voltage will change to .61 or .65 so not sure why it does that but I adjusted again. After the car is running again I’m going to go back and check or fix the base timing. I can never get the base idle to be around 750 +|- 50 Rpm it just idle surges when I move the Biss and never smooths out, I just replaced the IAC last week, so I just adjusted the Biss 2 full turns from bottomed out like someone recommend to start with.

 

[We're on Boost]

Ok sounds like good changes so far.
The reduced timing in the first 21 cells that I showed in post #9 should help with the idle surge. But there are other possibilities too, we can work through those bit by bit.
In the log you showed, your simulated idle switch was working ok. But your physical idle switch appears to be working ok too in that log, so the simulated idle switch is not really needed. So turning that one off is fine.

But the 2 things to watch in your logs regarding idle switch are the items labeled "IdleSw" and "IdleSw Pin".
The "IdleSw Pin" gives you a 1 when the physical idle switch is closed (which it should be when your foot is off the gas) and it gives you a 0 when your foot is on the gas enough to open the switch, which it should be just about any time you are on the gas.
People usually simulate the idle switch if their physical idle switch is bad, or not consistent, or if they have an aftermarket throttle body with no idle switch (like my car).

 

[Cj Anderson]

@We're on Boost I installed the new radiator today and adjusted both 21 cells. For some reason the cars IAC would not adjust using the idle switch in it’s normal configuration so I change to simulate idle switch and I was able to adjust the best screw and finally got my IAC to drop to 0 at idle and now the IAC moves to around -30 at 2500rpm. The biggest challenge I’m running into now is my wide band takes about 30 seconds to fire up and start showing the correct AFR but while it’s in that 30 seconds it shows 7:5:1 in the car runs like complete garbage within that 30 seconds and starts building 2 - 3 pounds of boost in that time. Is there something I should be doing with the start up option in the narrow band simulation tab? Or how do I get around that? I have the delay set to 30 secs but that’s all. I hope to get the car out and drive it and get a new log this weekend. The car seems to run really well after the wide band warms up and starts showing the right AFR.

 

[jed344]

You want to adjust the biss so your ISC position sits around 30-40 at idle. Honestly anything 30-50 i have found works just fine. How long does it take for the wideband to display on the gauge? Set the delay so it matches the " heat up" time.

When the car starts it should start in open loop and ignore any front o2 or even simulated o2, if the car in this period is running badly then you can make changes to help this as it is going straight off the tune and not correcting in anyway.
Now if the car is running badly and goes into closed loop and still does for a while then the data log will show and guide you to things to change to.
For instance on more modified set ups like say a 10:1 on e85 with a aggressive cam like a s3 i almost always have to add ISC offset and fuel based on coolant temp so the car idles higher and purposely run's on the rich side for a bit on cold start.

There is no exact answer as cold start is different for every car and mods and even area of the US. This can be a pain to make good but if it corrects soon as car goes into closed loop and wideband reads. That would indicate to me some changes need made as things are off for what it wants and until ecu starts making changes on its own.

 

[We're on Boost]

The biggest challenge I’m running into now is my wide band takes about 30 seconds to fire up and start showing the correct AFR but while it’s in that 30 seconds it shows 7:5:1 in the car runs like complete garbage within that 30 seconds and starts building 2 - 3 pounds of boost in that time. Is there something I should be doing with the start up option in the narrow band simulation tab? Or how do I get around that?

Yes! There is something you can do that will lean out that initial running by a whole bunch.
It's called Cranking Fuel Adjust. It's in direct access.
Cranking Fuel Adjust adds fuel during the first ~17 seconds on a 1g DSM.
The default values add really a lot of fuel, like 78% at 46 degrees F.
I looked at yours and it is set to the default values.
So you can turn that down a lot, as much as you want, just try out different slider positions.

Here's what I'm using on my car lately (pic below). My car was too rich and the cold starts improved a lot when I turned it down. You might need yours turned down farther than this.
It uses the number in the chart during cranking, then as soon as the engine starts to actually run it ramps down gradually to 0 over the next ~17 seconds.

Display "CrankingFuelAdj" in your logs. It will read out the % to you.
Also display "KeyStart" in your logs.
KeyStart should be a "1" when you are on the starter, and a "0" the rest of the time.
If your KeyStart ever quits working, your Cranking Fuel Adjust won't work either.
If you ever make your own Start circuit like I did, you will lose KeyStart. But there is an easy way to not lose it which I did after the fact. Just something to keep in mind. So I actually had no Cranking Fuel Adjust for a while. It's a lot better with some Cranking Fuel Adjust.

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Regarding the ISC position at idle - it's actually OK if your ISC goes to 0 when idling after the car has been running for 20 minutes or so and it's fully warmed up.

You are bypassing your FIAV with a bypass plate. So you don't have an FIAV. The ISC is all you have to increase airflow into the engine during cold start. So you want to get all the range you can out of your ISC.
You can do that by letting the ISC go to 0 at hot idle!
Because then your normal ISC range will be 0 to 120, instead of 30 to 120. With the stock way of doing it, which is 30 at hot idle, you are kind of throwing away 30 steps of range. In stock world, those 30 steps will keep your idle down to the low stock rpm pretty much no matter what, all conditions.

In our modified world, most of us don't care if our hot idle is a little variable. But we do like to have decent cold starts, and using your ISC fully is helpful for that when you don't have the FIAV. That's how English Racing set up my car and I like it, so I've kept it that way. My ISC does usually go to 0 at idle after 20 or 30 minutes of running.

There might be some states that have a max limit on idle speed during an emission check, but here in Washington we don't have those anymore!

 

[Cj Anderson]

@We're on Boost have a little bit of poking around with my innovate scg-1 I found that I can have a warm-up setting set 14.7 AFR. So now I believe the car will show 14.7 AFR during the first 30 seconds of warm-up / start up time. If that doesn’t seem to be working for me, I will go ahead and change my settings for cranking fuel adjust, and see if that helps.

And after adjusting the BISS I believe the IAC drops to 0 after it warms up. I plan to log start up and also log a drive today or tomorrow. At the very least I’ll do a warm-up log today. I did go ahead and adjust my fuel trims yesterday hopefully those look good. I did delete the FIAV because I suspect it was leaking and causing a boost leak and coolant, I was getting a lot of white smoke out the exhaust.

My overall plan is to have English racing tune the car, but I need to install my front mount intercooler first. My hope is to just drive the car this year and work out most of the bugs before I take it to them and enjoy it a little bit. I also live in Washington state. I’m actually in the Tacoma area so English racing isn’t too far from me, but I couldn’t find any local shops that would touch it. So once i get those logs, I’ll post them both and hopefully she’s good enough to put 500 to 1000 miles on it.

 

[We're on Boost]

have a little bit of poking around with my innovate scg-1 I found that I can have a warm-up setting set 14.7 AFR. So now I believe the car will show 14.7 AFR during the first 30 seconds of warm-up / start up time.

I'm not sure what that will do if anything. Because regardless of what the innovate says, the engine won't go into closed loop until your coolant temp hits 87 degrees F. And the Injector On Times (pulse width) will still be huge during cranking and still be quite large for several seconds after cranking. The Cranking Fuel Adjust is the way to get those Injector On Times down to a more reasonable level for cold starts.
I always start my logger just before starting the car so I can look at all that cranking and cold start stuff later in the log.
I log the entire drive usually. These logs don't take up much data space.

I think it's good that you deleted the FIAV. When I first looked at this thread I was going to suggest deleting it, but then I noticed you had already done that with a bypass plate. I mean just that they often cause trouble, and in this climate (I also noticed you were in Tacoma) we don't need them.

It's just as well that none of the local shops would touch your car. If they did they would probably charge you 4 times too much and screw it up besides.
English Racing is the only place I know of around here that I would go to for engine work and tuning.
That's what I did, and it worked out pretty well. But they figured out pretty fast that I was OK with spending the money and that I was easy to talk to and not full of crap and not heavily opinionated. I was already retired. I had worked all my adult life in industry as an engineer and a machinist, and had worked in a non-profit food business as well. I always found Lucas English and Myles Kerr to be very likeable. The guy who does most of their tuning is Aaron. I've only talked to him a few times. Myles is mostly in the front office and does some things in the shop. He is not really that much of a DSM guy. He is mostly a Honda guy and he's a great racer. I wish I knew the name of their engine builder, the guy who built my engine. He is definitely a good 4g63 engine builder, and Aaron is a good 4g63 tuner. Aaron is/was member "JohnBradley" in EvoM. There are a few other people working there in the shop. Jeff Bush for one, if he is still there.

I do also know of a good automotive machinist in the area if you ever need that.

 

[Cj Anderson]

Here is a log driving into work today. I spent the past week dialing in some things and adjusting settings. I'm starting to see maybe some Phantom Knock? I plan to drive the car all week to work to hopefully get some good logs. I found out this past weekend the drive line needs rebuilding so I'm waiting for the parts to show up for that. I have some rattling going in that area so hopefully that helps some of the noise. When I see the check engine light pop on for knock the car sounds smooth and no noise so not sure what's happening.

 

[We're on Boost]

Here is a log driving into work today. I spent the past week dialing in some things and adjusting settings. I'm starting to see maybe some Phantom Knock? I plan to drive the car all week to work to hopefully get some good logs. I found out this past weekend the drive line needs rebuilding so I'm waiting for the parts to show up for that. I have some rattling going in that area so hopefully that helps some of the noise. When I see the check engine light pop on for knock the car sounds smooth and no noise so not sure what's happening.

Your cold start looks good, and good running while warming up too, although it didn't go into closed loop until you started poking the gas pedal a little bit, and the coolant temp was ~99 F which I'm used to seeing 87 or 88 degrees on 1g cars, so that's close, good enough!

Combined fuel trims look pretty good to me, they are small numbers. Single digit.
Yeah the knock looks like phantom knock. It's happening at around 3,000 rpm and low Load Factors (less than 0.8 usually). When you are on the gas more it's actually better - higher load factors, no knock. In the areas later in the log where you have some heavier throttle with Load Factors over 1.2 there is no knock really. This is just like phantom knock.
In the phantom knock thread I can think of that was a really good one in here lately, it was due to the HLA (lifters or lash adjusters) needing to be replaced:

ECMlink - RESOLVED - Crazy knock under part throttle/low load/open loop

I've attached a data log of my commute to work this morning.I've been experiencing lots of knock under low load, part throttle, ~2k-3k RPM, and usually open loop. In this log, knock continues into closed loop for a bit. I have to release throttle and roll back into it for knock to stop, and...

www.dsmtuners.com

Oh oh, after 2106 seconds your coolant temp is all of a sudden going completely haywire. After 2137 it looks like your coolant temp sensor is either completely dead or completely disconnected. If you want any help shopping for a new sensor I can show you - they are cheap (Rock Auto).

I found out this past weekend the drive line needs rebuilding so I'm waiting for the parts to show up for that.

It wouldn't be unusual for your propeller shaft to need rebuilding at this age. My prop shaft was rebuilt at about 130,000 miles.

 

[We're on Boost]

Just looked for some open loop running in the log and at 2111 there is a good pull at low rpm where it is starting from closed loop and mid 14's AFR, then going into open loop at about the right place, and once in open loop the AFR goes progressively down to low 11's when the load factor is about 1.35. That's good.
Back around 2082 the rpms are higher, around 4,000, Load Factor around 1.35, and the AFRs are heading into the 11's there too. Good.

 

[We're on Boost]

You will probably get real knock, actual detonation knock, when you start to use more throttle and more boost, with the timing that you have now. Then you will need to turn down the timing that is in the TimingMaxOct table by several degrees. Actually the TmngMinOct numbers are pretty close to what you'll need.
So the MinOct numbers would be a good place to start from when you want to do some WOT pulls with higher boost if you want to be more safe.