1g CAS and Aftermarket EMS + injection style

[turboglenn]

Well, a while back i blew a HG on my way to sioux city to hang with a friend, and while in a friend of his garage having my car fixed the owner of said garage decided to "help" I hadn't beat the car much since then and noticed strange rnning issues when i did... poppinjg/backfiring under WOT and just not feeling right but running well either way, albeit rough and inconsistant on the tune)

I won't even go into how he destroyed my tensioner and i had to rig the timing belt tight to drive home but rather focus on the running issues after the fix

I've always taken the easy way out and just ran batch fire injection on my 6 bolt with a black top CAS and with many deleted OEM pieces and my EMS having no provision for idle increase while using the AC (unless i gave up one of my "extra function/goodies"

Well, tonight i went through adn did what was needed to go true sequential , i blocked off the smaller 2nd home signal in a green-top CAS by silver soldering a piece of shim stock in it's place, swapped the injectors to where they neede to be to fire in the proper order, set the parameters and went to the store to set the timing since it was past 1AM in my neighborhood

*** a side note.... on batch fire you don't need the "home" or "sync" signals, just the 4 trigger pulses that occur ~75* BTDC and to put the pairs of injectors is the proper places for proepr batch firing which is swapping injectors 2 and 4 becuse 1&2 and 3&4 fire in alternating pairs***

Now on sequential systems that aren't OEM with many emmissions related features built in requiring exact position reference of the cam and crank, the 2nd home only causes trouble because most aftermarket EMS systems only need one home/sync to signal that all 4 have fired and it's time to start again with #1..which is why i had to remove/cover one of the 2 home signals in the green cas ( could have don the black one easier but wanted to tryu the optical for it's lower chance of EMI with having an MSD- DIS-2 right near it... the reason to cover the 2nd home is that anytime it sees a "home/sync" it will go right back to firing injector #1 (and DSM uses a second sync right before teh #3 fire which would throw the whole thing off if left in place)

SO , back on track... the car started beautifully compared to the batch setup, revved really nice off idle, cruised perfect and was down right an improvement ( i mainly wanted these few things plus better economy)

Well whe i was timing the car at the gas station i coudn't find the timing mark to save me, tried both wires 1 and 4, so then i try wire #3 and viola! timing marks!!! Now i had put the green cas in exactly as the black top had come out, but either they are different or the "helper in sioux city" had boogered that up too on install ( i had passsed out at about 4am and he decided to "fix it for me when i was sleeping"

Now due to many reasons that are stated on this forum the car can and will run with teh CAS 180* out with most ECU's other than stock 2g stuff

So tomorow i set teh CAS back in correctly and start playing with ijector phasing, but i must say that either way the stalling with teh AC on when stopping, bucking at low throttle cruise sometimes and random prolonged startign periods seem top already be a thing of the past, ewven with the fuel just puddling behind the valve and firing whe it gets a chance it's been running better tonight than it has since the HG went a couple months ago (but i've been too sick to really drive/test it anyway untill the last 2 weeks)

So, even at 180* out the car is running harder, cleaner and idling a thousand times better on 1000cc injectors and e85 (and i had it pretty good to start with )

I will post my results tomorrow of full on testing and loggin WOT now using full sequential, with the cas in correctly and pull logs with both meth pre-turbo on top opf e85 and a pull or 2 with soe laughing gas (jonesing to hit that button anyway)

But I just wanted to share this becuase these all seam to be common symptoms of a CAS 180* out on an ECU that will still let it run and can so easliy be overlookeed by simply thinking "it just can't be" I hoppe that the WOT backfires and the stalling with AC are teh 2 main things to improve as teh car is still very impressive for the level of build and a fun car to drive and extracting the true benefits of full seq. injection is soemthing i'm looking forward too eagerly

sorry for the TG book, but ya'll kno whow i am


AUTOMERGED EDIT:
Just took my mini-pin to the vet for some shots and got the first true drive while on sequential injection...

Here's what i've noticed

1.) IDLE is unbelieveably smooth and not once did i stall from the A/C compressor kicking in during 40 minutes of driving in light to light traffic

2.)the car is way richer EVERYWHERE and can use a lot of fuel to be pulled out (yey for me as far as MPG's are concerned)

3.) throttle responce is so crisp and even with 1kcc injectors the idle is just like i was back to a stock car with nothing more than the thermal and a K&N

All of these improvements and my CAS is STILL 180* out ::, can't wait to install it in phase, and i've also yet to even touch the injector phase control map that determines when the end of injection should be accomplished by in degrees BTDC.

4.) the car also now likes to idle at a much leaner AFR (closer to stoich than before when i was running on batch even wehn the CAS was set in correctly)

Untill recently and mainly just for soemthing to do adn for the fuel economy i hadn't bothered to go sequential because most posts on the subject declare that there's really no difference besides the idle stability (due to using one larger pulse instead of 2 smaller ones per cycle where the injectors can't open consistantly) most injectors don't like less than 1.7ms of pulse, 2.3 and above are ideal at idle (given the AFR's can be correct anyway)

As soon as my only employee this year gets back from court and we can get our work finished i will be putting the cas in phase, dial;ing in the AFR's tonight while cruising and pull soem logs..

Oh, and i almost forgot and have no idea why, but spool up is greatly smoothed out and improved

 

[turboglenn]

okay, The CAS was in correctly but my friend who last helped me put the timing system back together (another DSM'er , but no mechanic) put my crank pully on 180* out which was why i was getting timing correct on cylinders 2 & 3. The pin that aligns the crank pulley to the timing gear is now pushed in fluch (thanks again nameless friend ) but at least i can see it to judge where to position the pulley

I've got the tune dialed in over the last few days running 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT and pulling 23* at peak torque and working up toi 27* by 8500 RPM without the slightest sign of knock (although i did have a bit much timing in the transition areas which was rattling things a little but that's fixed)

Now i know that under WOT there's not supposed to be much difference in batch and sequential as far as power and fuel consumption go but i swear i'm getting lower IDC's (and the logs prove it) at he same boost levels and running much crisper.

I'm still running pre-turbo meth injection at 70/30 (light on the water ) and when that's engaged i'm running about 11.7:1 or so but there's still no knock at that rich of a setting with the ethanol main fuel

I'm still the most amazed by the fact that i can drive all over town with the AC on and not have to bump start it from the car stalling coming up to lights and pushing in the clutch while being on the brakes this is something that no matter how well i tuned I could not get the stalling to stop.

once i dialed in the injector phpase angle things got even better but i really wish i had some way to know what mitsu uses from the factory so that i could copy that and work on it from there, all i've done so far is tune to 14.7 with no closed loop in effect then increase the angle untill it got as rich as it could get (free revving in neautral at each 1k RPM) then linearize between the settings i got at each place.

Now if i could just find something to trade for a new turbo, money is uber tight from hospital bills and being off work while i lived in the most expensive hotel in omaha (the nebraska medical center that is ) MY compressor wheel look like some one placed it face down on the concrete and stepped on it but the CHRA is PERFECT and so is the turbine.. I ended up losing my intake and airfilter after bouncing face first off a snow drift this winter and didn't realize it for at least a week of driving on salt and gravel covered roads.. lucky i check the oil at each fill up, sadly i drive so little in the winter it took a long time for me to get under the hood and notice this

So i either need a hx35 ( yea i wish) or a replacement 57trim to4e garrett wheel to put in (but then it wouldn't even be balanced but oh well)

Anyway, that's my update on seq. injection and how please3d i am to be running it now

 

[Ceddy]

once i dialed in the injector phpase angle things got even better but i really wish i had some way to know what mitsu uses from the factory so that i could copy that and work on it from there,

"For sequential injection, fuel injection starts on the cas falling edge
i.e. cylinder #1 injection starts at -5 BTDC of #3 TDC"

Order being 1-3-4-2.

Basically Injector #1 starts firing with the #3 Crank Triggers falling edge. This gives maximum injector open time.

 

[ramsack]

i always like to hear about full standalones and the advantages. i will be skipping over all of the cheaper alternatives and go right to aem. i like to make things the most efficient and drivable. i would also like to do sequential ignition, as well as injection. about the aftermarket trigger disc for the green top cas...are they recommended for something sequential?

 

[turboglenn]

go with a Haltech, MUCH more user friendly, and if not cheaper at least a match in price! Just because AEM has "plug-n-play" doeestn' mean you can litterally plug it in and drive, there's always some issue to sort out and with AEM you have to maintane a lot of the OEM wiring where with a haltech you can wire through the OEM harness or lay your own in but either way you get rid of the injector resistor pack and much more useless junk with a haltech

also with a haltech there's no need for a trigger disk mod to run sequential, you just get riud of the smaller of the 2 home pulses on the cam portion of the CAS. I'm willing to send you the diagrams to wire it and maps to get you starrted and going if it will keep you from making an aerMistake

(the system functrions well but they purposely make things more confusing than they need to be on AEM units)

 

[ramsack]

good stuff. i just thought the trigger disk was to help start the car easier. what would be a good ems to get by them? also is there any way an ems can use a wideband o2 sensor directly for a closed loop kind of deal? i was also thinking of megasquirt. they make different plug in kits that plug into bosch harnesses.

 

[turboglenn]

megasquirt is nice, the new dip switch style unit is even better. As for haltech find a used or new left over e6x ( or even the older e6k which i have one that is in for repair from a static shock i gave it a few years ago)

being that i'ma dealer i can probably get you an e6x pretty decently prioced. the new platinum series although more expensive has even more inputs and outputs but the e6x vversion has plenty to run a 4g63 in sequential and still run your fans, water injection, nitrouse and MFI relay power up (oh and the ac requests and signals as well) all at the same time (that's what i'm running off mine right now ) and can be had for around a grand or so , they were 2400 but like i said being a dealer i can get a leftover x unit for a good deal so probably around a 1k price tag for unit with harness

 

[ramsack]

i'm a long way away financially from being able to do any of this, i just like to have info beforehand. i really want to try the megasquirt route, at least first. which megasquirt system are you referring to? i was looking at the diypnp kits on diyautotune.com.

 

[turboglenn]

i forget the name but it's something like "prefesional EMS" but it's a version of MS where instead of wiring and soldering to chang the inputs and outputs and configure it for your engine you just flip dipswitches to change like pick up typpe, 4 cylinders, waste spark etc..

 

[ramsack]

hmm that would be awesome. i saw their new v3.57 that uses all smd stuff, nice

 

[turboglenn]

asked a buddy of mine today that showed it to me the first time, it's called "EMS pro", same software and everything as MS but all dipswqitches to set it up for cylinders , waste spark etc..etc.. very nice unit if you ask me, the open source code still workks and people out there are making leaps and bounds in what that thing can do! Show me one other EMS unit that is under 1000 dollars and can use a flex fuel sensor to adjust between the pump gas and e85 map

 

[ramsack]

yeah i'm lookin at that. it's still only a dual bank for injection. it seems to have a proprietary connection so it might not be as easy to make sequential. how many bits resolution do the ADCs on the megasquirts have?

 

[turboglenn]

To be honest i'm not that knowledeable on the MS system , but after tuning a few i know i like em and want one to play with when I get a "toy" car to play with again some dday

seriously though if i were to build a little low budget racer that's the way i'd go, there's a DSM around here running it and my buddy tuned it adn got nice power (no dyno) and there's a TON of megasquirt cars here cause this guy that's pretty cool called "diesel geek", what's weird is we run in the same circles, both supposedly cool to know stand alone guys but i don't even so much as know his phone number

I just like what MS is capable of, still the only aftermarket EMS that can read a 420 crank trigger without major work

 

[rts91tsi]

Just curious where you got the info about the optical style CAS being less prone to EMI? After asking about which CAS was a better choice on a local forum...I was told the Hall effect sensor was less prone to EMI, as well as reading similar findings in AEM's undocumented settings document. I'm not saying your findings are incorrect..I'm just inquiring. Would it also be possible to just tell the EMS to ignore the rising edge?

 

[turboglenn]

got that info talking to many people, but the first place i got wind of it was right here on the forum, search enough of my old threads about ignition breaking up at 7200 RPM and you'll see who evere said it to me on here. And on the outside workd locallyI spoke with many people as well, some being electronic engieering majors who all said just because of how they work the hall effect was more prone to EMF/EMI, hall effect works off magnetic fields where supposedly optic doesn't, but i'm not sure how it exactly does work, just how to configure them in EMS's (i'm no EE i'm ME) but this has proven to work for me as i had an issue with missing in the top end at one point that has p[lagued me on and off untill just recently and since the optic install i've had NO interference (my DIS -2 is right by my CAS on the firewall)

hall effect in theory has better resolution but i've been revving cleanly to 8500 all dayt long with the optic where with the hall effect i would get interference all too often and in the logs i'd watch my trigger signal go nuts during the "breakup" of ignition events, I, even changed CAS's a few times but kept changing to new black top hall effects ( i still have 5 of them 2 black top and 3 green tops) and although reluctnat to make the change i'm glad i did, it would have even been easier to keep a black top as the 2nd home signal is easier to get rid of (just cut it off instead of filling in the hole on the optic which has a narrow slot it has to fit through)

And the rising edge is what you want to read, but you have to get rid of the sedcond home signal (shorter one) for the haltech to read it correctly for full sequential

I don't claium to "know it all" about these CAS's, but i do know this has worked for me

 

[ramsack]

hall effect is a magnetic trigger, optical is infrared...so with common sense, the hall effect would be effected by emi. both can be affected by it in the wiring going to the ecu as well. i will always stay optical, but that's just me.

 

[turboglenn]

hall effect is a magnetic trigger, optical is infrared...so with common sense, the hall effect would be effected by emi. both can be affected by it in the wiring going to the ecu as well. i will always stay optical, but that's just me.

aha..infrarad! I always wondered but never asked anyone who knew, thanks for that. I'll deffinitely stick with it over hal;l effect then for my own reasons (as it's worked better for me already)

Either way it's a square wave signal so they can interchange flawlessly for those who are wondering, an ecu that understands one will happily read the other as if nothing had changed