16G support help

[disillusions]

Since I'm having my motor replaced, I took the time to grab an Evo III 16G to put in there. This is new territory for me, so I want to make sure I get it right. I've read other threads saying that you should upgrade the injectors, pump, and grab a fuel controller. Is that all that's needed? Or should I go with the black box ECU to tune with? My goals are a modest 300-350 awhp, so if I can get away with only a fuel controller, I'd prefer that over a new ECU.

Supporting mods are as follows:

Evo III o2 housing
3" turbo-back
Dejon intake
ETS FMIC

Do I need anything else? Input is greatly appreciated.

 

[Cdc1221]

Seriously? There is a thread started every other day asking this very same question

 

[disillusions]

There definitely is, and I've read a plethora of answers pertaining to the issue. Most seem to suggest injectors, a pump, and a fuel controller; but I've seen others that encourage a full tuning solution using ECMlink, a black-box, etc, and even some that say running it on stock boost levels will be fine for the current fuel system. All I'm looking for is a little direct clarification.

 

[Zufelt]

There definitely is, and I've read a plethora of answers pertaining to the issue. Most seem to suggest injectors, a pump, and a fuel controller; but I've seen others that encourage a full tuning solution using ECMlink, a black-box, etc, and even some that say running it on stock boost levels will be fine for the current fuel system. All I'm looking for is a little direct clarification.

I'd say a way to tune is a must, wideband, boost gauge, injectors, fuel pump, MBC, FMIC, FPR to start with.

 

[CountryDSM]

Look at my mod list. I am probably barely making 310-20hp at 20psi. That is in DSMlink but I don't trust those numbers.

 

[disillusions]

I'd say a way to tune is a must, wideband, boost gauge, injectors, fuel pump, MBC, FMIC, FPR to start with.

Would I still need an FPR if I go with the 190 pump? I thought it was only necessary with the 255. Now the other question is, which is the best way to go about tuning? I know people swear by the DSMlink, but I've also heard the later model ECUs are tuneable right out of the gate.

Look at my mod list. I am probably barely making 310-20hp at 20psi. That is in DSMlink but I don't trust those numbers.

Looks like I've got most of it, but I'd need to up the ante on my fuel and grab a DSMlink.

 

[Greedy Pimp]

If your going to want more power in the future grab the 255 and fpr, most people do. If not go with the 190, and yes you dont need a fpr for the 190. For tuning I would go with dsmlink, because its easy to setup, I don't know about evo scan where you can reflash the Ecu, I think total it's like 40 bucks for the software and a cable a lot cheaper then Dsm link. But I don't know how easy it is to setup, maby some one ealse will know.

 

[FLASH1970]

To get 350awhp out of an auto car on a 16g, you'll probably have to upgrade or crush or dodge-mod your BOV. Probably want to run E85, 255 pump w/ AFPR, some 1000cc injectors... or get an EVO9 or 190 pump, use your stock FPR and meth injection with some good sized injectors. Also 272 cams, ARP headstuds, EVO3 intake or SMIM, External wastegate, boost controller... look at the DSM Dyno Challenge under the members tab at the top of the page. See what they are running to get those power levels out of a 16g.

For tuning, you can go with ECMLink V3 which is expensive but easy to use and has a great support forum. I bought a V2 setup just to play around with and see what the hype was about. I got the hang of it pretty quickly. Or swap in a 98-99 ECU. It does have some write-ups to get going and some user support but not as much. The flashable ECU can be had for 100-150, then a tactrix cable is 190 and EVOScan is 25. I already had the cable and EVOScan I was using on my 99, so I swapped a 98-99 ECU into my 95. I had to swap plug wires around and put a flash cable in. There's more things you can do with the flashable ECU compared to V2 DSMLink but V3 is supposed to have much more to it.

 

[disillusions]

If your going to want more power in the future grab the 255 and fpr, most people do. If not go with the 190, and yes you dont need a fpr for the 190. For tuning I would go with dsmlink, because its easy to setup, I don't know about evo scan where you can reflash the Ecu, I think total it's like 40 bucks for the software and a cable a lot cheaper then Dsm link. But I don't know how easy it is to setup, maby some one ealse will know.

For the time being I'd be happy with my current goals. As much as I'd hate to buy a fuel pump twice, I also don't think the fuel rail + AFPR are in my budget for the build at the moment. Sounds like DSMlink is the way to go though.

To get 350awhp out of an auto car on a 16g, you'll probably have to upgrade or crush or dodge-mod your BOV. Probably want to run E85, 255 pump w/ AFPR, some 1000cc injectors... or get an EVO9 or 190 pump, use your stock FPR and meth injection with some good sized injectors. Also 272 cams, ARP headstuds, EVO3 intake or SMIM, External wastegate, boost controller... look at the DSM Dyno Challenge under the members tab at the top of the page. See what they are running to get those power levels out of a 16g.

For tuning, you can go with ECMLink V3 which is expensive but easy to use and has a great support forum. I bought a V2 setup just to play around with and see what the hype was about. I got the hang of it pretty quickly. Or swap in a 98-99 ECU. It does have some write-ups to get going and some user support but not as much. The flashable ECU can be had for 100-150, then a tactrix cable is 190 and EVOScan is 25. I already had the cable and EVOScan I was using on my 99, so I swapped a 98-99 ECU into my 95. I had to swap plug wires around and put a flash cable in. There's more things you can do with the flashable ECU compared to V2 DSMLink but V3 is supposed to have much more to it.

For right now, I just want to get this thing running again. I'll worry about hitting my horsepower goals later. So if I'm running the 16G, with a 190 pump, on stock boost levels, what size injectors should I grab? 1000cc sound a bit much considering I looked at the list you mentioned and many were on stock injectors at 300awhp, while others had 655cc injectors.

 

[GPTourer]

If you are on stock boost levels with no way to control the injectors - stay with stock injectors.

If you are going to flash your ECU or use 'Link go reasonably large. ~1100 is a popular size and they run shy of $400.

 

[FLASH1970]

As much as I'd hate to buy a fuel pump twice, I also don't think the fuel rail + AFPR are in my budget for the build at the moment.

So if I'm running the 16G, with a 190 pump, on stock boost levels, what size injectors should I grab? 1000cc sound a bit much considering I looked at the list you mentioned and many were on stock injectors at 300awhp, while others had 655cc injectors.

Why would you buy a fuel rail? No need for your power goals. And with a 300-350 a 190 pump should be fine if it's rewired. I bought a used EVO9 pump that flows about 205 off of the EVO forums for my 99. I think I paid 40 bucks for it and it had about 40K miles on it. I'm still on the stock FPR with 880's. Overkill for a T25, but a 450 died, it's my DD so ineeded to fix it, and 880's is what I had laying around...

Running a 16g on stock boost, use stock injectors.

300AWHP with stock injectors? I call BS... maybe if the fuel pressure was cranked way up it might be possible... and every dyno reads differently. And your car is auto which soaks up some hp. But it will be more consistant and quicker in the 1/4.

I thought your goal was 350awhp. There's a big difference in parts to make 300 versus 350whp with a 16g. For 300AWHP, 650's should be fine. My 95 is about what your goals are. It was at 300awhp on an SAFC, a big 16g, 680 injectors, mild cams, 6 bolt, 3" exhaust, ETS FMIC, lightweight flywheel, Clutchmasters Clutch... blah blah blah. . I swapped in the flashable ECU and working on the tune among other things so I'll be able to get a little more out of it.

 

[disillusions]

If you are on stock boost levels with no way to control the injectors - stay with stock injectors.

If you are going to flash your ECU or use 'Link go reasonably large. ~1100 is a popular size and they run shy of $400.

Okay, I'm a little confused. So can I run the 16G decently without any sort of fuel or engine management? I thought it was mandatory...?

Why would you buy a fuel rail? No need for your power goals. And with a 300-350 a 190 pump should be fine if it's rewired. I bought a used EVO9 pump that flows about 205 off of the EVO forums for my 99. I think I paid 40 bucks for it and it had about 40K miles on it. I'm still on the stock FPR with 880's. Overkill for a T25, but a 450 died, it's my DD so ineeded to fix it, and 880's is what I had laying around...

Running a 16g on stock boost, use stock injectors.

300AWHP with stock injectors? I call BS... maybe if the fuel pressure was cranked way up it might be possible... and every dyno reads differently. And your car is auto which soaks up some hp. But it will be more consistant and quicker in the 1/4.

I thought your goal was 350awhp. There's a big difference in parts to make 300 versus 350whp with a 16g. For 300AWHP, 650's should be fine. My 95 is about what your goals are. It was at 300awhp on an SAFC, a big 16g, 680 injectors, mild cams, 6 bolt, 3" exhaust, ETS FMIC, lightweight flywheel, Clutchmasters Clutch... blah blah blah. . I swapped in the flashable ECU and working on the tune among other things so I'll be able to get a little more out of it.

I was going to grab the AEM rail since their FPR attaches right to it for a smooth install; and it wasn't too expensive. It was one of those things that wasn't that expensive, and would be useful if I ever wanted to flow more in the future.

Okay, so I can hold off on injectors for now? Good. I really want to get it running smoothly before I worry about dialing the boost up.

Hey, I'm just going by people's list. Maybe it was old? Not sure. I just remember that a future mod planned was 650 injectors, and he had nothing listed currently for upgraded injectors.

My goal was 300-350. Right now the goal is driving though. Now, here's another question for you. Should I bother with the SAFC or just go with the DSMlink? It doesn't make sense to spend $400+ on the SAFC when the V3 is only a tad bit more. Plus it handles the same functions as the SAFC, no?

 

[WES_393]

Okay, I'm a little confused. So can I run the 16G decently without any sort of fuel or engine management? I thought it was mandatory...?

You'll be fine so long as you run wastegate pressure (~10psi). Anything more and you'll need an upgraded fuel system.

I was going to grab the AEM rail since their FPR attaches right to it for a smooth install; and it wasn't too expensive. It was one of those things that wasn't that expensive, and would be useful if I ever wanted to flow more in the future.

Okay, so I can hold off on injectors for now? Good. I really want to get it running smoothly before I worry about dialing the boost up.

Hey, I'm just going by people's list. Maybe it was old? Not sure. I just remember that a future mod planned was 650 injectors, and he had nothing listed currently for upgraded injectors.

My goal was 300-350. Right now the goal is driving though. Now, here's another question for you. Should I bother with the SAFC or just go with the DSMlink? It doesn't make sense to spend $400+ on the SAFC when the V3 is only a tad bit more. Plus it handles the same functions as the SAFC, no?

The AEM fuel rail is nice but it's not considered an upgrade over stock. DSMLink is on a whole different level than Piggy-Back tuning devices. You have control over the actual ECU programming.

 

[disillusions]

You'll be fine so long as you run wastegate pressure (~10psi). Anything more and you'll need an upgraded fuel system.



The AEM fuel rail is nice but it's not considered an upgrade over stock. DSMLink is on a whole different level than Piggy-Back tuning devices. You have control over the actual ECU programming.

Thanks for the info. So last (hopefully) question. If I'm running wastegate pressure, do I need to tune? I know that tuning will still be beneficial to get the most out of my modifications thus far; but is it absolutely necessary at this point?

 

[GPTourer]

The stock fuel and the stock computer will have anough headroom to deal with the Evo3 at stock boost so you will not need to tune. I'm not saying improvements can't be made to a stock tune, but I wouldn't waste effort trying to max out a 10psi set up.

Once you can afford a better fuel system and can turn up the boost - start tuning.

 

[WES_393]

The stock fuel and the stock computer will have anough headroom to deal with the Evo3 at stock boost so you will not need to tune. I'm not saying improvements can't be made to a stock tune, but I wouldn't waste effort trying to max out a 10psi set up.

Once you can afford a better fuel system and can turn up the boost - start tuning.

Exactly. The stock tune has tons of room for improvement regardless of your turbo. So tuning is always a very good idea, but you don't need to until you upgrade the fuel system and start cranking up the boost. Many members (including myself) have ran Small/Big/Evo3 16g turbos at 10psi on the stock fuel system without issues. Just be aware your fuel system will be close to it's limits.

 

[disillusions]

The stock fuel and the stock computer will have anough headroom to deal with the Evo3 at stock boost so you will not need to tune. I'm not saying improvements can't be made to a stock tune, but I wouldn't waste effort trying to max out a 10psi set up.

Once you can afford a better fuel system and can turn up the boost - start tuning.

Exactly. The stock tune has tons of room for improvement regardless of your turbo. So tuning is always a very good idea, but you don't need to until you upgrade the fuel system and start cranking up the boost. Many members (including myself) have ran Small/Big/Evo3 16g turbos at 10psi on the stock fuel system without issues. Just be aware your fuel system will be close to it's limits.

Thanks for the info, guys!

Another reason I felt a real tune might be necessary was the fact that I was getting horrendous gas mileage when I was running my old T25 before it and my engine went. Obviously I'd need to see how the new setup runs, but with my luck I'll still get 8-10 mpg. But either way, I guess my next step is to go for a pump/injector upgrade, along with the V3. The V3 can also act as a boost controller, correct?

Actually, two more questions. As far as injectors go, how are PTE and FIC? I was thinking either 950 or 1000cc since they're about the same price between the two companies; but I'd rather go with whichever company makes a better product.

 

[Justin_l_]

I prefer FIC personally.

 

[GPTourer]

Thanks for the info, guys!

Another reason I felt a real tune might be necessary was the fact that I was getting horrendous gas mileage when I was running my old T25 before it and my engine went. Obviously I'd need to see how the new setup runs, but with my luck I'll still get 8-10 mpg.

Then there's something else wrong with the car. You should be able to maintain similar gas mileage to a stock DSM if all you change out is the turbo to a 16g and keep it at factory boost.

 

[disillusions]

Then there's something else wrong with the car. You should be able to maintain similar gas mileage to a stock DSM if all you change out is the turbo to a 16g and keep it at factory boost.

Keep in mind, this was on the old engine/turbo. I've yet to see what the new setup will do.

 

[miguelmcv]

Once you make the car runs, check for boost leaks, and make sure all is connected and it should be OK,
But, if you have a bad front O2 sensor, It will run rich, so it will cause your issue.

The O2 sensor will not make the cel to come ON, unless is completely dead.

 

[disillusions]

Hey guys, I just got offered a hell of a deal on a 99 flashable ECU. Is it worth it? Or should I save the money and go for DSMlink?

 

[Cdc1221]

I prefer link, personally. The lite app is only 425, and IMO, is far better than evoscan. Plus from all I've seen, ceddymods is about dead, whereas ecmtuning is constantly bettering their software

 

[disillusions]

Ah, I see. Is using EvoScan that bad? I figured DSMLink is better, but for $50 how could I pass up finding out.

 

[Cdc1221]

Ecmlink has much better logging capabilities. But I understand the financial point of view. But unless you know the person you'll be buying that ecu from, I'd be extremely cautious. That's pretty cheap considering they usually go for $150