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2G 16g or 20g?

Posted by the heeat, Sep 18, 2014

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  1. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    This will be my first turbo upgrade...have several other mods sitting in garage waiting for me to find a turbo before everything goes on. I've found a couple, but I haven't been able to decide and I've searched and read but nothing I've found seems to answer my questions. The turbos I'm looking at are a evo 3 mhi 16g, an eBay 20 that I'm VERY skeptical of because how everyone on here puts them down, another evo 3 16g which needs an install kit, a complete 14b setup, a small mhi 16g that will also need an install kit and an mhi 20g...the pricing on all is fair and the people are all legit, I'm just not sure which is gonna be the best.

    My last gst spyder had the stock t25 and I warped some valves because of a garage not tightening a tensioner pulley. I bought this one maybe a month ago with a blown turbo and dude included an evo8 big 16g but it mounts backwards from what mine is, do I figure sell it and put part of the $ toward new one. Atm the car is stock...I've got an mbc, New boost gauge, fmic on the way, 255 walbro new, I have a 1g bov and a greddy, k&n air filter (may buy a cold air, havent looked yet), car already had muffler upgrade and I've been thinking about bigger injectors, possibly fuel rail if necessary, really don't want to tune if possible, was reading about fpr and afpr's but still not sure about those either.

    Not sure if I'm forgetting anything or not but I'm sure you guys will have some input and may jog my memory. Thanks!
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  2. Breezio69

    Breezio69 Proven Member

    863
    17
    Joined Mar 5, 2012
    SLC, Utah
    You'll want injectors and a way to tune if you want to run anything other than stock boost pressures. If that's fine with you, sell all the upgrades and just get a 14b

    Now, since you want to up the boost, since you have a mbc. Look into a tuner as simple as an safc, and injectors as easy as evo 560's. I'm running 20psi on a big 16 on those. It was $75 for the used safc, $90 for evo injectors with about 40k on them (supposedly).

    Don't be a derp, you know you need to get injectors and tune, otherwise keep it stock.

    Also, b16g kicks ass. Well, enough ass. Just buy genuine on any of your options you listed and you'll like them all, 20g just meams a little more lag. For a starting point, my big 16g spools 20psi by just under 3500. I'd expect 4k on a 20g and praise the almighty if its earlier than that. Hope that helps.
     

    Street Build 1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM
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  3. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    Very much so, thank you!! Dumb question tho...what's the safc? I've seen it alot but it hasn't been to priority to search yet...Sorry.
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  4. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

    382
    83
    Joined May 14, 2014
    Wilsonville, Oregon
    A safc is this thing right here. It's a standalone tuning device. Always get a wideband 02 and a tuning device before doing any fuel mods to your car or even adding a bigger turbo.

    0917141537.jpg
     

    Street Build 440  11

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Sjd6795

    Street Build 1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  5. Breezio69

    Breezio69 Proven Member

    863
    17
    Joined Mar 5, 2012
    SLC, Utah
    Yup, its the blue screened tuner in the picture. Its EXTREMELY basic. As low as you can get on totem pole. But, for a small tune with realist goals of about 300hp. It works all day.

    Search- apexi safc dsm. You'll see some haters along the way, but as stated get a wideband and tune safe, you shouldn't have any issues. And there is plenty of useful tuning guides to set you on your way with the safc.
     

    Street Build 1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM
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  6. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

    382
    83
    Joined May 14, 2014
    Wilsonville, Oregon
    It's actually underrated people just have dsmlink hot wired into their stubborn brains. I have a friend who runs it on his Mitsubishi starion with 940cc injectors making roughly 450ish HP. And he hasn't had a problem at all with it. I plan to run a 18g at 20psi or so with 680cc injectors with mine.
     

    Street Build 440  11

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Sjd6795

    Street Build 1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  7. 96WhiteTSi

    96WhiteTSi Proven Member

    106
    4
    Joined Mar 6, 2009
    Reno, Nevada
    People have ECMLINK hot wired into their stubborn brain because its far superior to SAFC in every way. However, both get the job done...
     

    644  0

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
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  8. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    So get both, the wideband and the safc along w injectors? I was only asking coz I really want sure if the capabilities of some stock components and as I've asked and you guys are telling me, makes me realize that I had forgotten about lil things like that asking the way...not so much being lazy (which one dude accused me of lil while back and kinda made me mad) but more like I was spread too thin and forgot.
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  9. athlete3344

    athlete3344 Proven Member

    333
    16
    Joined May 1, 2010
    Tampa, Florida
    If you get either 16g or 20g you will definitely need:
    bigger injectors
    a quality afpr
    and a way to tune
    Wideband O2
    Dont forget gaskets and parts for install

    Choosing between the two turbos is your choice, but definitely stay away from ebay, but the 20g will reduce wheel hop a bit on FWD. I picked up a 20g from FP with their exhaust manifold for a deal a few months back. For injectors, 800cc will leave you room to play with the 20g. For tuning, DSMLink is an excellent path to go down - there is tons of support everywhere (both user and company).

    Overall, if you are patient, you will definitely find deals as time goes on. Going cheap is definitely going to cause you more problems than the difference in cost of buying quality parts.

    Personally, there are certain parts I will only buy new and unfortunately, the turbo is in that category. I opted to go for DSMLink/ECMLink - whatever its called now - because I wanted more capability than a SAFC or equivalent.
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM
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  10. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    What about the hx35? My buddy is building a gsx and that's what he is using. They're his preference, he's used them in the past and just likes em...said I'd need a t4 manifold I think but how dif are they from the 20?
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  11. Mitsumungst-gvr4-tsi

    Mitsumungst-gvr4-tsi Proven Member

    62
    1
    Joined Mar 29, 2014
    Chicago, Illinois
    Unless you have a beo bolt on housing. You will need a manifold to work with the twin scroll housing. Theres tons of info on both setups on this site if you search!
    How is going to a bigger turbo going to reduce wheelhop LOL? That makes no sense alittle lag won't eliminate shot motor mounts or suspension LOL. If you want to avoid wheel hop, upgrade the suspension and motor mounts, prothane bushings and learn to drive alittle better! :)
    The problem with a safc is you can only really tune your injectors and you have no way to log anything to really fine tune, and 650's are about it. Yes some use other methods and tricks to run higher sizes. That comes with experience with the unit and lots of trial and error, someone just starting out would struggle with it.
    Now link you can do any size you want, theres tons of info and support. You can not only log but have ability to tune and add sensors and gauges. You can make duel maps and have a mpg saving tune and a race weekend tune! :) A safc and ecmlink arnt even in the same category if you ask me, so much more control and features! If you can swing link or save a bit get it and be done. If not a safc of course will work, until you really want to push your setup and be able to have real control and not blow it up!
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  12. Sjd6795

    Sjd6795 Proven Member

    382
    83
    Joined May 14, 2014
    Wilsonville, Oregon

    Street Build 440  11

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Sjd6795

    Street Build 1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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    dcmarf likes this.
  13. oren hughbanks

    oren hughbanks Proven Member

    222
    26
    Joined Aug 4, 2014
    prescott valley, Arizona
    I have the ever dreaded cx racing 20g on my talon tsi. I agree buy original mhi if u can I'm sure it's more durable in the long run, but so far I've been very happy with the 20g. I can see full boost at 3900 rpms! Has a great spool on it and it pulls hard all the way to 7k. It's a great street turbo.

    As cool as link is, I just can't afford it so I searched for a few weeks and found a used Apexi AFC Neo. It's a great little controller. Has 32 points of adjustment, which is alot more than older afc. It's convenient right there on my console, I can adjust it on the fly. I can change the screen colors on it, and even has a screen saver. I'm running 750cc injectors and those are the max of what it can handle. I'm at -30% on the higher rpms on my high throttle map. So I don't have too much more room for taking away fuel, u only have up to +/- 50%.
    I also went with a innovate mtxl wideband. I have to say those are essential for Any kind of tuning. Period. Theres no way around it. I mean that's the most critical thing to monitor on your car, and my butt dyno is not accurate enough to tell me if I'm over fueling or running lean. My car is a street car, and I spent a majority of my budget on building solid internals, and left enough to get some basic tuning tools, cause I can always upgrade those later. By the time I added up link, dyno time and tuning, that's almost as much as I paid for the whole car. Atleast if I ever have to sell it, I can try to break even on it. These cars just don't hold value, especially modded to the moon and back. That's just my 2cents, and that's my build. It
     

    1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  14. 95talongirl

    95talongirl Supporting Member

    1,013
    166
    Joined Feb 9, 2008
    On a Jet Plane, Illinois
    The evo 16g is a great street turbo. the turbo you go with, really, depends on that you want to do with the car. do you want a really fun street car that seems some track use or autox? Or do you want more of a drag car? I really love the 16g because its spools so fast. And with the proper supporting mods, and tuning, can run really respectable 1/4 times. For example, My car is a 12-sec car no matter how bad I drive it. The times I do get a good launch and good shifts, it'll go 11's. And it's an absolute blast on the street. So you have to look at the whole picture.

    Also, you cannot be in this hobby expecting to make any money. That's not the point. Unless its a real Hemi cuda, or a select few other classic cars, you will never get the money back out of it. I know that I have more money into the car than it's worth, and I am ok with that, because it brings me enjoyment. If you are looking to keep the value of the car as high as possible, then keep it 100% stock.
     

    4K  32

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.437 @ 126.42 · 2G DSM
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  15. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    I'm with ya there, the people I bought this spyder from bought it two months prior for 4500!!!!! His gf told my gf as we loaded car onto the dolly that she was gonna cry........prolly coz I bought it for 900! I'm going for a fun street car that I might take to street fights (organized public drag at the Bristol tn track) one a month or so. Is there a difference between the big and small 16g's?
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  16. Dsmkauai

    Dsmkauai Proven Member

    3,928
    413
    Joined Feb 20, 2010
    Kauai, Hawaii
    Yes if you can get a evo3 16g flows 47lb/min compared to a small that only can handle 35-37lb/min! :)
     

    Drag Race Build 803  2

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · automatic · 2G DSM

    6K  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    13.7 @ 101 · Galant VR-4

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    12.408 @ 112.930 · 2G DSM

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    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 2G DSM
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  17. athlete3344

    athlete3344 Proven Member

    333
    16
    Joined May 1, 2010
    Tampa, Florida
    Basically any turbo larger than a 14b is going to require at minimum injectors, afpr, wbo2, tuning software, and other misc parts which add a significant cost.
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM
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  18. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    So assuming I get a big 16g, along w all the other necessary bells and whistles, which is what I'm leaving towards...what boost should I start it out at and how much will it hold on the high end?
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  19. athlete3344

    athlete3344 Proven Member

    333
    16
    Joined May 1, 2010
    Tampa, Florida
    Stock, youll have to find a compressor map to see what the power band is for the 16g, its somewhere in one of the threads.
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  20. oren hughbanks

    oren hughbanks Proven Member

    222
    26
    Joined Aug 4, 2014
    prescott valley, Arizona
    Get a good quality boost gauge if you don't already have one. Totally x2 on stock psi to start with. Even tho it'll be the same psi, its going to be flowing alot more CFM. A 16g is going to give u great midrange power, good for street Use. As far as the max in my opinion, it's all about the efficiency range. A 16g could do 30psi, but by then it's not going be very efficient. And your limited by fuel too. I have my avcr set at 18lbs and it seems perfectly happy. Not enough to where I'm gona nuke it, but I'm limited by this limp wristed fairy juice 91 octane
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014

    1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  21. Clinical

    Clinical Proven Member

    578
    7
    Joined Nov 15, 2009
    Cedar Falls, Iowa
    Get a genuine 16g - honestly for the average person, small/big/etc 16g's are all going to be similar enough to make you happy.
    In addition to what you said you already have - you'll need a FPR, the wally 255 will overrun the stock FPR, you might get away for awhile but it's really not recommended to use the stock FPR with the wally 255.
    Then as others have said you'll need a way to tune. Obviously ECMLink is a huge recommendation here - but otherwise you can go the SAFC route if you do it right and know what you're doing. SAFC does not give you even a third of the control over your car ECMLink will, but it will get the job done. I would happily use a SAFC if I just had a DD with a few simple upgrades that needed some tuning and I didn't want to spend much on it. Another option would be getting your ECU Socketed and using a chip, there are freelancers who can set up a chip for your car.

    Anyways main point - 16g will be perfectly sufficient. I'm only on 23psi on my 16g and my car runs consistent mid 11's with a stupid simple setup. I wouldn't bother with an HX35 right now. Too many people "over-turbo" their cars for what they want and never see near the potential of the turbos. One reason I stick with my 16g is it's super fun, cheap, and if it does end up kicking the bucket they're simple and cheap to rebuild.
     

    Street Build 3K  0

    1994 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.653 @ 119.06 · 1G DSM
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  22. bryanwheat

    bryanwheat DSM Wiseman

    6,978
    170
    Joined Aug 16, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri
    The biggest problem with an safc is that you get more timing advance the larger injectors you go with. This is because you are hiding airflow from the ecu. Normally the ecu will start retarding the timing as airflow goes up, but when you are showing 30 percent less airflow making more power than stock with more aggressive timing you will bun into uncontrollable detonation issues on pump gas. This is worse on 1g's because they use such aggressive timing already. I would seriously consider at least a eprom with a custom chip and an safc to fine tune over just an safc.
     
  23. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    I'm not going to go huge w the injectors, I just want something that I won't overload like the stock ones yet don't want so big that I'll have to do more than I'm planning so that I'm atleast getting my $'s worth.
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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  24. jimsgsx

    jimsgsx Proven Member

    717
    99
    Joined Oct 21, 2013
    toppenish, Washington
    I would go with the small 16g or 14b. They spool quickly and dont require all the upgrades.
     

    Street Build 3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  25. the heeat

    the heeat Proven Member

    95
    1
    Joined Jun 21, 2012
    Lebanon, Virginia
    What's the dif in the big and small 16g's? I mean from what I understand, there's not much...what's a safe max for the 14b and the 16g's? I mean for the turbos, not for my motor...because I plan to start out with the boost turned down as low as possible and go up gradually and I didn't want to blow the turbo not knowing how high is to high or anything like that.
     
    the heeat

    666  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    · 2G DSM
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