14b/auto-awd track results 6-26-11

[Nate Crisman]

Took the DSMpartout racecar to Island again today, with some pretty piss-poor results:

Run 1: pump E85, nitrous off, 14b only. Antilag set to 5*ATDC. Stage the car, get it to about 3500rpm/12psi on the converter at half throttle then go wot and activate the antilag timing lock. Car stays still, but rpm falls down to ~3000rpm. I let the brake go, car runs a 11.87@111 on a 1.54. I also shifted it very early 2-3 and 3-4, which seemed logical as it now has a stock 2g head and stock 2g cams. Log has a little bit of knock on the starting line and a little lean at low rpm. Basically, just about the same performance as it ran last time on pump E85 w/ the ported head & GSC S2 cams. nothing I didn't expect.

I made some adjustments to the VE map to even out the AF vs rpm. Took the global from -60% to -55% as we drained the pump E85 and filled the cell up with PowerMist RE85L fuel. This fuel, as I was told by the tech at powermist it is a blend of 85% 200proof ethanol with 15% 120octane leaded gasoline that is extra high oxygenation. IE "super race E85". He told me to "richen up about 5% due to the oxygen content" and "way higher knock resistance than pump E85". I also put the anti-lag timing lock to 2*ATDC as the first run lost rpm on the converter when the antilag kicked in and didn't make enough power to come out hard at only 3000rpm.

Run 2: 12.1 @ 110 on a 1.6XX Staged, got up on the converter, but when I went wot to engage the antilag, the car pulled through the beams and tripped the starting timer. I let off the brake right away, but damage was done. 60' was way slow due to the creep, and the ET was off as would be expected. AFR was in the 10's, so apparently 5% global was too much for the fuel change. Had knock right from the starting line to the traps, I kinda figured the knock sensor didn't like the antilag on the line and stupidly dismissed it and decided to stick to my original plan.

pulled plugs...look fine. compression test: 185psi across the board. fluids good, vac lines good, ic pipes good. Refill ice and fuel. Check coolant, oil, and overflow tanks. Everything looks fine.

Turned nitrous system on, opened bottle, purged the system. set the secondary minoct timing maps for -6* of timing compared to the maxoct maps. enabled the nitrous and secondary maps. moved antilag timing retard to 4*ATDC to hopefully prevent another "pull through the brakes" situation.

Run3: car pulls through brakes again even worse, as the tree didn't even start to come down resulting in blank timeslip on my lane. 60' felt weak, 1-2 shift fine. Nitrous comes on in 2nd and the engine feels like it missfires then cleans up but doesn't feel like any power. Engine power seems to 'come and go" through 2nd gear. Stayed in it to see AFR in the 10's then let out...return road the car feels like 3cyl.

pull plugs: all are intact. #3 looks wet. Compression test: #1:185 #2 185 #3 000 #4 185

I'll post logs and videos soon as I get them organized and edited down to size. All in all, frustrating day without a single good run. Oh well. I'm going to be out of commission for a while if there is any expensive damage, as Im pretty much out of "racing cash". It's nearly July and I haven't made a decent pass yet this year, blown up both times at the track, and seem to have some issue with the nitrous kit as well as tuning issues on the converter. Im in no shape to race at the shootout, and seem to be floundering all together. Starting to think about possibly taking a bit of time off, helping Nelson get his GVR4 sorted out, and going back to the yellow car in the fall when my head has cleared. Will pull the head tonight or tomorrow and see what broke. The plug looks oily, so Im guessing either severe HG or piston?

 

[warp9]

Damn man that totally sucks. I think you need to regroup and get back to the basics. If you hadnt yet straightened out the tune on e98 why hit the nitrous?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Damn man that totally sucks. I think you need to regroup and get back to the basics. If you hadnt yet straightened out the tune on e98 why hit the nitrous?

It was E85, not E98.

Why turn on the nitrous: because frankly, the tune wasn't far off on Run #2 and I felt there was no significant performance to gain by fine tuning a few tenths of AFR. AFR was reading in the 10.7 to 10.8 range, a bit rich compared to the 11.5 target, but that's not going to hurt anything. The power gain going from 10.7 to 11.5 is negligable. Run #2 has some knock, that originated on the starting line before the car even moved. I dismissed it as a fluke : 3000rpm, 11.1 AFR, 4* of timing, and 11psi of boost.

Realistically, knock on the starting line while spooling up to launch RPM has absolutely nothing to do with the nitrous kit, since the nitrous won't come on until after 55mph. Any tuning issues on the starting line at 3000rpm/0mph are completely seperate from 5000rpm/55mph+ when it sprays. In effect, I should have been able to work on the "tune on the converter" totally separate from "tune w/ nitrous on" at the same time safely because they are issues at different times on the pass and different areas of the fuel/timing maps. Changes to one area do not affect the other.

Anyway, it's too early to pass judgement on the nitrous system causing the failure, or the tune, or a specific mechanical part until I get it disassembled and see what happened.

YouTube - ‪DSMpartout Talon 14b auto 06 26 11.mov‬‏

Note from the incar on run #3 that I dropped the throttle right about as I passed the orange 1/4mile timers a few feet before the display tower posts. Datalog shows about 11.3seconds between first sign of Vehicle speed and TPS dropping from 100 to zero. So I'd guestimate this run would have been a low 11 ET had I not broke the staging beams before the tree came down.

Just pulled the head with car still on the trailer in my driveway. Less than 1HR (see..I'll be a good Lemon's pit mechanic). #3 cyl has an exhaust valve that has a chunk broken off. Doesn't look bent. Piston looks unscathed. HG looks like it sealed up fairly well for the most part....only two spots look like combustion got through, same two spots that were pushing last time....nothing unexpected. Im getting a pic right now w/ good camera & speedlight.

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[Nate Crisman]

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[Phil1320]

Damn Nate...sorry to hear...what the heck is going on?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Damn Nate...sorry to hear...what the heck is going on?

After showing pics/logs/info with a few people I consider expert tuners, seems the diagnosis is "too little timing". Final ignition advance was 3-4* in 3rd gear and 1-2* in 4th gear. Apparently that little timing will cause the EGT to go insane, superheat the exh valves, and burn them up. Once there is a tiny leak, the nitrous/alky fuel just keeps torching through the hole. Similar to what happened last year when I had a headgasket leak and stayed in the throttle for whole run w/ nitrous on.

I shouldn't have taken 6* out of the timing map when the nitrous is on...that was just too little timing. Then the knock sensor going nuts and pulling another 4-6* out on top of that made the situation that much worse.

 

[Phil1320]

After showing pics/logs/info with a few people I consider expert tuners, seems the diagnosis is "too little timing". Final ignition advance was 3-4* in 3rd gear and 1-2* in 4th gear. Apparently that little timing will cause the EGT to go insane, superheat the exh valves, and burn them up. Once there is a tiny leak, the nitrous/alky fuel just keeps torching through the hole. Similar to what happened last year when I had a headgasket leak and stayed in the throttle for whole run w/ nitrous on.

I shouldn't have taken 6* out of the timing map when the nitrous is on...that was just too little timing. Then the knock sensor going nuts and pulling another 4-6* out on top of that made the situation that much worse.

Ok I understand for the most part. Damn man......the car was obviously capable of a low 11....hate to see you abort the mission though with that much potential. A steep learning curve....but that's just it. You are doing what most haven't here.....and that's what helps the community, even if it destroys parts in the process.

 

[slowgsr]

After showing pics/logs/info with a few people I consider expert tuners, seems the diagnosis is "too little timing". Final ignition advance was 3-4* in 3rd gear and 1-2* in 4th gear. Apparently that little timing will cause the EGT to go insane, superheat the exh valves, and burn them up. Once there is a tiny leak, the nitrous/alky fuel just keeps torching through the hole. Similar to what happened last year when I had a headgasket leak and stayed in the throttle for whole run w/ nitrous on.

I shouldn't have taken 6* out of the timing map when the nitrous is on...that was just too little timing. Then the knock sensor going nuts and pulling another 4-6* out on top of that made the situation that much worse.

How big of a shot were you spraying?

 

[Nate Crisman]

.024 nitrous jets x 4 at 925 psi of bottle pressure is abbot 105-110hp. It's the smallest jets I have

 

[Armandotech]

why so little timing?

 

[GORBS88]

Sorry to hear, but with that little timing your lucky you didnt melt more stuff down. I'm sure things were glowing red.

 

[domthebomb11208]

hey nate which class you lookin to run in at bushurs shootout? Do u need to have a muffler? or just full exhaust aka exiting in the stock location?

 

[larrykoren]

You still going to make it to dst? I am back on the 68hta, and plan to do dst. It looks like fun and good competition.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Im staying home from the shootout, both budget and time isn't there. With buying a house this last winter, all the extra bills, and my wife being a teacher (no paychecks from July to September), I just dont have the cash to both fix the car, pick up a 16g, and travel to the race. Im going to spend the cash I had set aside for the ohio shootout trip on fixing the car instead.

It's 5 weeks away and I haven't made a single decent pass all year, haven't even tried to get an RT at all, and have zero work into figuring out how to stage and race the car heads up. Last time out I redlite 2 times from creeping through the brakes. It would be utterly pointless to bring a high 11 second 14b car that runs 2-4 second reaction times. Not to mention, by this years track record, it'll blow up well before eliminations anyway.

Im not planning to even put another head on till maybe september. Kinda hoping my buddy nelson gets his GVR4 togther and I can repay some "crew chief" effort back to him and help his car to run well before I put any more effort into my own.

I'm more looking forward to going to florida for a few weeks vacation in august and just forgetting about DSM all together for a while to clear my head. 2011 just isn't my year, it's been a total disaster so far which has me more than frustrated. After blowing up on 6-26 and pulling the head in the driveway I have litereally not touched the car. I rolled it off the trailer into the grass behind the shop and that's where it sits. I haven't made a plan for fixing either head yet, what turbo is going back on, or what do do regarding fuel/nitrous/tune that caused the failure. Im quite hesitant to just put another head on the car and torch a third one.

 

[larrykoren]

I hear ya man. Thats cool and it sounds like a good plan. I have had great luck this year and am grateful and hope it keeps going good.

I put in a brand new built engine into the car. It has 9:1 wiseco hd, manley turbo tuff ibeams, kelford 272s, buschur stage 3 head (ported, polished, .5mm over manley valves, ss oring, ect), 2150 cc FICs, sinister speed high stall converter, and more goodies.

It is running great and better than ever. I just have to work on my powerbraking problems and I have my 2 step at 3900 and it is making 25psi and I sit completely still. I am going to try to raise it more because of the great results. But I dont think ill get too much more.

I mainly need to work on getting the tune dialed in to get my converter up as fast as it should be with the 10in max stall. I plan to pre stage build the boost up a decent amount and then stage and sit on the 2 step and hit the light. Or go to 2 step on prestage and inch forward, but it might heat it up too much by the time the light goes. I am going to practice wednesday at norwalk.

It will be a true comparison to show if the cams help or not. ANd to show if the turbo was really maxed out on the stock 2.0 with stock cams. I believe it is maxed because I am just getting backed up in the turbine housing, and a better flowing engine is still choked by the hotside. We will see though.

I am sad to not see you there NAte, but I will have alot of competition still I presume with the 10.58 2g, and maybe english and who knows who else is going to pop up.

And with the 2150s I think I could run straight meth or close to it. Did your lines just start to leak like crazy or do you think I could get a pass or 2 on straight meth and the switch back to e85. Or is it not worth the corrosion. I know it is corrosive but could a pass or two hurt? It would be flushed out quickly. I wanted your opinion since I dont know many others trying out meth as a fuel source.

Check out the new setup if you want. http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o293/94atxvr2/

I took off the fp3575 for now because I want to do DST instead on quick class and I didnt have any nitrous to spool the big boy. I went 12.8@130 with 2.7 60ft with it the other day. SO i daid give me my small turbo back for now.