13.935 @ 100.28 420a NA (no spray)

[DSM-ZERO]

never mind i found the link it's the Megasquirt....

ok back on subject

I think a custom set of ITb's would be bad ass i have seen and read about the neon community making them using suzuki motorcycle parts.

you might be able to gain 20-30hp
more if you use a more aggressive cams with a higher duration.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I think Brian had set of four TB's from a Suzuki bike at one point... not sure what happened to the project, but I don't doubt that the idea came from the Neon guys.

 

[bullettdsm]

Modifying these small FWD cars is a numbers game. Lots of low end torque isn't going to help much, especially considering traction. But lots of high end power, with my little 2.0L screaming through 9,000 RPM... that's where I'm going to make up lost time on the 1/4 mile.

Yup, yup ! Agreed. I got mine set at 8200 just because of my dyno curves (remember that this is on stock valve train except stainless stock size valves). But if I put the crower 3 in there........

Tom, thanks for the kudos! I'd love to get to E-town (and I will sometime) I'll def. give you and Cory a heads up. As for the ability of the engine to put up with rpm's; when I got my AF/X (it still had a 8500 redline) I brought my stocker with 130k+ up to 8500 many times (kinda pointless except for first to second ). I did this to prove that the valve train could handle it (which it did until I went for the current upgrade rebuild at around 143k).

As for ITB's, it's an idea I got bouncing around in my head. I haven't convinced myself yet that it is that great an idea. My line of thinking is that you will up your throttle response but I'm not so sure about how well it'll help your power curve and max hp. Still thinking on it. But for now, I'm thinking about an intake idea of mine.........

MB

 

[GSGoinFast]

Amazing work! Excellent job you make us all proud!

 

[Locke]

Whoops, forgot to congratulate you.

Good job running in the 13's.

 

[bullettdsm]

Heh heh, thanks for checkin' in Locke. Appreciation with respect.

Chris man! How the Eff are you?! Haven't heard from you in a while. School got you going? Or is a new job working your ass off? Thanks for the Kudos, checkin' in on the thread. Who would have figured we'd get 13's NA? I'm hoping your current hiatus is all good news (or maybe you're posting somewhere that I don't frequent).

MB

Oh yeah, the AF/X ECU is a no go for the turbo's. They don't like it.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Yeah I was just about to say hey Chris is back around. Haven't talked to him in a while. He didn't forget about us!

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I think I should get the credit for reminding him that he was missed around here.

 

[BigRand]

Just by looking at my old dyno sheets when I was non turbo, and running low boost, most of the time I noticed that the power pand was dropping off just after 6K with the stock 420a motor (unported ect.)

I guess I'm just curious to see what is needed to be done before raising the redline in this motor to see real hp gains?

The reason I'm asking is because a couple of years ago when I was starting out in the 420a NT world, I was under the impression that our cars didn't react like hondas (ie responding very well to higher rpms, and bolt on airflow modifications)

I guess what I'm wondering is what makes it possible to jump from 160whp to 176whp NA on our cars.

 

[Artago]

Who knew the 420A had such balls without turbocharging? very impressive... Is your profile mod list up to date?

Times two.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Just by looking at my old dyno sheets when I was non turbo, and running low boost, most of the time I noticed that the power pand was dropping off just after 6K with the stock 420a motor (unported ect.)

I guess I'm just curious to see what is needed to be done before raising the redline in this motor to see real hp gains?

The reason I'm asking is because a couple of years ago when I was starting out in the 420a NT world, I was under the impression that our cars didn't react like hondas (ie responding very well to higher rpms, and bolt on airflow modifications)

I guess what I'm wondering is what makes it possible to jump from 160whp to 176whp NA on our cars.

I'll let Mark talk about the details, but for an immediate response, he does have a higher compression ratio, and significant porting. Not to mention MSnS-E, which lets him lean out the AFR for peak HP.

 

[bullettdsm]

I'll let Mark talk about the details, but for an immediate response, he does have a higher compression ratio, and significant porting. Not to mention MSnS-E, which lets him lean out the AFR for peak HP.

What the hell do I have to answer for? You got pretty much everything

Hey Rand, the biggest factor is the tuning. Our ECU's are set on dog. No matter what you do, you will still get dog because of the AFR's and the timing curves. That's where the MSnS stands out so much. At one point on the dyno I was running 40 degrees advance with AFR's over 14 . My plugs were so clean, you would have thought I was running water (we didn't stick with those numbers, though I am still running 40 in places).

Point being the adjustability that is needed to put out the power is not just in cams (though that is part of the equation). I think you were on the stock ECU when you were doing this? Even with an AFC you'll gain little.

As far as numbers on dyno you might be interested in this thread. It also compares the AF/X to the MSnS.

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=11&topic_id=5570&mesg_id=5570&page=

As you can see I can technically claim 184whp on the dyno (because I DID actually have that power under those conditions). But again, I'll stick with my ASE corrected numbers.

MB

 

[kqodprez]

Sweet car...I'm going to show my brother this since he as a 2gnt. Maybe I'll go and buy one for a dd and set it up to run constant 13's and keep the tsi straight track.

 

[BigRand]

Thanks mark, well hopefully paul is will still be cranking out some MS systems next month, because I think I finally got some money in to make my car go fast properly, and it would be nice to see my car being listed as faster than yours (again), but I can't hate man, I love the work you've done and only hope that you can keep pushing it.

Good luck.

 

[fullmoon]

How's the idle with a N/A HP set up like that?

 

[DSM-ZERO]

I have really been thinking about ab N/A set up for the last couple of days........because my daily driver needs a re-build ...and i might go high compression this time and mess around with some all motor stuff

Do you think 200 - 220 whp is possible...maybe with some crower stg3's

were you still making hp at 8500 rpm... if so ....maybe with the C3 cams and a higher redline,.............lets say 10k and a dry slump I think it might be possible to get over 200whp out of it with out ITB's

Is it possible to get JE to make an 11.5:1 comp. piston also or is there not enough clearance between the valves and piston

 

[fullmoon]

^^^ I talked to a guy who got 200hp to the wheels he said it cost em $14,000.00.
But power fell off at the top.

 

[bullettdsm]

I have really been thinking about ab N/A set up for the last couple of days........because my daily driver needs a re-build ...and i might go high compression this time and mess around with some all motor stuff

Do you think 200 - 220 whp is possible...maybe with some crower stg3's

were you still making hp at 8500 rpm... if so ....maybe with the C3 cams and a higher redline,.............lets say 10k and a dry slump I think it might be possible to get over 200whp out of it with out ITB's

Is it possible to get JE to make an 11.5:1 comp. piston also or is there not enough clearance between the valves and piston

(he casts out bait and starts reeling in.....feels the hit, wait......wait; and set the hook! Got one!) Heh heh, just kidding DSMZERO . I would love for someone else to join in on this. Here's what I would do differently; 12.5 JE's, Crower 3's (obviously taking into consideration does the combo contact?), some lighter rod (strength isn't the problem, rotating mass is the consideration), crower valve train (need it for the 3's anyway). I'm not convinced on the ITB's netting me a whole lot more horsepower. More of a throttle response thing (which for FWD NA, isn't really a problem). Consider a long tube header.

I didn't run her up to 8500 on the MSnS dyno (the 8500 was on stock internals set-up. Just to prove that it could be done and last). Crower 2's didn't make it there. The power drop was not drastic but I'm redline at 8200.

Previous to this I would have said NO WAY to the 200whp. Just a pipe dream. Can't be done. But now, I'm not so sure. Believe me, the 176 SAE corrected is the highest (reliable) number I have seen. (remember,I did 184 actual that day under the conditions of the day- see previous link to dyno numbers in thread). Now with all those other mods done and a little more tweaking, I'm honestly CONSIDERING saying it's possible. I'm really tempted to put together the mods I just talked about. But time has me cornered.

Keep in mind, when I started this, breaking 15's was considered a huge obstacle for these cars. We're in the 13's now. So I don't think I'm too screwed up in my thinking. Eh maybe I am

As for idle, I'm old school. I never raced at idle so I never care about idle . She fluctuates between 700 and 900 but she NEVER stalls. Matt (my tuner at Dentsport) said he could fix it but I told him don't bother.

MB

 

[raimel20diaz]

congrats... great job. I though is was going to be a shitting day up here, turned out okay.

 

[DSM-ZERO]

i think that the 10.5:1 would be good maybe for 11:1 if you deck the block and head......

I'll inquire about 11.5 and 12:1 pistions at JE.
Super Tech has made some awsome stuff for my valvetrain.....TI retaines, Valves, Brass guides, Dual Springs also......
chek them out. My Head was there test bed for there new 420a product line

look at Castillo crankshaft service...thek might be able to shave some weight off the rotational mass
714-523-0321....or.....310-697-3045

other tht that how about neon 95 non modular clutch converion W/ alum flywheel to get rid of that flexplate ......that will save some weight also

are you still running power steering and ac....if not you can pick up some hp there by elimating those factors

 

[oldman]

I call BS.

Congrats Mark.

 

[bullettdsm]

i think that the 10.5:1 would be good maybe for 11:1 if you deck the block and head......

I'll inquire about 11.5 and 12:1 pistions at JE.
Super Tech has made some awsome stuff for my valvetrain.....TI retaines, Valves, Brass guides, Dual Springs also......
chek them out. My Head was there test bed for there new 420a product line

look at Castillo crankshaft service...thek might be able to shave some weight off the rotational mass
714-523-0321....or.....310-697-3045

other tht that how about neon 95 non modular clutch converion W/ alum flywheel to get rid of that flexplate ......that will save some weight also

are you still running power steering and ac....if not you can pick up some hp there by elimating those factors

Yup, you're right there.

I'm running 10.9 (decked head). With info out there at the time, this was considered borderline adjustability by many.

I'd pass on the dualies, not necessary IMO. But I like the rest!

My shop will probably lighten the crank (if I go 12.5's).

I gotta change my mod list. Just put in a clutch combo I like; Neon flywheel/daytona T4 clutch disc/ audi-vw pressure plate. About $350 for the whole set-up and the PP is rated at 2500 lbs. I've been running a flywheel for about a year now.

AC/PS is, of course, long gone . I'm weighed in around 2500lbs sans driver.

And Bruce thanks for the words of encouragement . Now BS stands for, um, Being Speedy, right?

MB

 

[oldman]

And Bruce thanks for the words of encouragement . Now BS stands for, um, Being Speedy, right?

Close enough. Let us know when you come down to Island or E-town, Corey and I will show up with our pompons.

 

[DSM-ZERO]

well it sounds like im on the right track since you alredy have all that taken care of alredy..

what do you think about doing a dry slump set up

with different cams you could take your red line to whatever you wanted.....provided the block was balanced accordinly......which it is...

What where your shift points????
Did you 2step off the line???
And if so what was your launch RPM

What about slick size and tire pressure

 

[bullettdsm]

what do you think about doing a dry slump set up

Dry sump? Certainly not on my priority list.

with different cams you could take your red line to whatever you wanted.....provided the block was balanced accordinly......which it is...

Agreed, of course to a certain point. You may set up valve train that can take say 12k, but you'll be hard pressed to find the set-up that going to make flow and power up to that point and not beat itself to death (in a realistic, cost effective sense). Even with balancing, you're throwing those pistons pretty hard (though an interesting thought ) But this is certainly beyond what I set out to do.

What where your shift points????
Did you 2step off the line???
And if so what was your launch RPM

What about slick size and tire pressure

Funny thing is that I have been changing the set-up so much, that I haven't had any good seat time in a consistent set-up (though each step has been an improvement over the last step. That doesn't happen too often).

This last time out, I had a brand new clutch set-up that I was kind of ###gy about launching. 1st time out I launched down near 3500 on a catch and ride launch. I caught it and rode it slightly while pulling the rev's up. My shifts were lower because I wanted to be sure I got a run in . The second time I came closer to an actual launch. I came out at 4300 with a slight bit of a clutch ride to get her going. 1st to 2nd; 7500-7600. 2nd to 3rd; 7300. I also no lift shift (I'm one of those old school guys who thinks he shifts quicker than an automatic). As for 2 stepping; IMO, I don't have the power curve (or power for that matter) to find it effective.

As for the slicks; they were actually acting as drag radials . Because of the new clutch set-up I got in the water but no smoke show. Just enough to get the tires spinning and then I rode it out of the box with E-brake action so that I would clean the tires off a little. So they weren't sticky hot.

But I find that psi is super important. I ran 16lbs that day (a little higher than I would have liked, but I was being a baby). Probably should have been 14.

I hope I didn't bore you with this long-ass post . But I guess I like to flap the jaws

MB