Why does my GSX keep getting slower with each upgrade?

[volkerding95GSX]

Hey guys! I usually try and figure this stuff out by myself, but I have no idea what to do next and I am in way over my head. Any help would be GREATLY appriciated. So thanks in advance.

I am stuck in a rut with my DSM build and was hoping you could give me some advice and/or motivation to finish it. It's been disheartening because it seems like every "upgrade" I do to it makes it slower and run worse than before. This car is the first I've ever modified and I have next to no mechanical experience besides the few bolt-ons I've put on.

The eclipse felt the fastest when I first bought it. It pulled hard and never missed out. The only mods it had when I bought it was a small 16g, 1g BOV, K&N fpik air filter, HKS cat-back, Apexi electronic boot controller and a bigger fuel pump (unknown size). At this time everything was great and I had no CEL.

Fast forward after all the bolt ons I've added: (4" Forced Performance intake recirculated, Punishment racing SMIC hard pipes, Stainless steel tubular exhaust manifold, stainless steel 02 housing dumped to the atmosphere, Megan 3" downpipe and 3" Megan cat back with cat-delete.) Now it idles just a little rough, I have a CEL, and the car feel WAY slower than it used to. It doesn't pull hard under boost. The boost gauge reads 10 psi, however I feel nothing but a slow car.

I've done a boost leak test and there was a huge leak in the coupler right after the turbo amoung a few others, so I fixed all the leaks, but it only helped minimally. Still the same symptoms. The oil, spark plugs, and wires are brand new.

Where did I go wrong? Why is my car slower after I upgraded the bolt on parts? Is it a matter of installing too many breathing upgrades and no fuel upgrades? Or should my car still run strong with the upgrades I have?

I still have plans to buy bigger injectors, a wideband, and ECMLink, but that wont be for a long while, so I was wondering if there's anything I can do with my current set-up to make it run strong again. If not, I would love if you guys could give me a rule out check list or a list of parts I would need to get my car running right again. Let me know if you need any follow-up questions from me and I will do my best to answer. Thank you!

 

[jimbob_843]

STOP!!!! Dont buy anything and think its gonna just solve your problem. Do a proper BLT please! If that checks out fine then proceed to more testing. You are gonna waste money doing this. I understand that you are gonna upgrade anyway but it will do no good if all that boost your gonna build is leaking out!! BLT is maintenance on a dsm so might as well get used to it.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I don't know what that is and didn't see on the website where you can order that. Could you explain this more to me?

So here's the plan: I'm done with upgrading bolt ons. I would have liked to put a FMIC, but they are expensive and I just want my car running right above all.

Goal: Get the car running right by fixing any boost leaks and getting a good Air/Fuel ratio via ECMLink, all while leaving room to grow with a FMIC/bigger turbo, ect, down the road.

FOR SURE: I will be buying Link, and also a boost leak tester now that I have an air compressor.
If you have any advice for me about ECMLink, please go here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/421281-getting-ready-buy-ecmlink-any-advice.html

Here's the next part that I'm not sure about. A small list I made includes: Wideband 02 sensor (Do you guys like the Innovate LC-1?), 1000cc Fuel injectors, Fuel pump (no idea what size yet), fuel filter, AFPR (no idea what kind yet), and a manual boost controller to replace my electronic boost controller.

Could you please give me your opinion on which of these parts are a necessity and which parts I don't need now per my goal? Any specifics on brands/sizes would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

You will need all of that, as well as a fuel pressure gauge to mount on the AFPR.

I would get the Aeromotive AFPR and the 342LPH pump. Then rewire the pump with heavy gauge cable. Like 8 or 10ga.

You could probably leave the stock fuel filter and just replace the line with the banjo bolt that runs to the rail with a -8AN adapter and a rail adapter. Or upgrade to a Golan filter, but then you either have to modify the stock feed line, or modify the pump hanger to run a new line to the new filter which will like have AN fittings.

Then on the return side run a -6AN adapter to the AFPR, from the AFPR you can run a -6AN line to the stock return line, slip it over and clamp it on.

A PLX, Innovate, Zeitronix or AEM Wideband UEGO would all work just fine, make sure you use an input buffer from ECMLink when you wire it all in. ID1000 injectors would work well on your setup.

 

[Calan]

Here's the next part that I'm not sure about. A small list I made includes: Wideband 02 sensor (Do you guys like the Innovate LC-1?), 1000cc Fuel injectors, Fuel pump (no idea what size yet), fuel filter, AFPR (no idea what kind yet), and a manual boost controller to replace my electronic boost controller.

Could you please give me your opinion on which of these parts are a necessity and which parts I don't need now per my goal? Any specifics on brands/sizes would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

There's countless choices, and just as many opinions. The only way to be sure you get what you "need" is by doing a LOT of reading and research, and then combining what you learn with your goals. Which brings us to...

Setting realistic goals for your car, and realistic expectations of where you may want to be a couple years from now, is the most important step. This includes being able to identify:

1. A budget. This doesn't just mean "I have $1000 to spend"; you also have to think about repairs, getting everything in shape to handle any power upgrades you have planned, more (or different) fuel, possible insurance rate increases, track fees and costs (if you plan on tracking it at some point), tires, etc.

2. Your abilities and basic skills as a mechanic and tuner. A huge part of successfully owning and running a DSM is being able to figure things out and work on the car yourself...unless you are literally made of money. If you lack the tools, space, or ability to do regular work on your car and don't have bottomless pockets, then be prepared to admit it and think about other options.

3. Your tenaciousness and patience. The car will break. You will make bad decisions. You will lose money on replacement parts and upgrades. You will alternate between hating your car and loving it, at least until you have invested a lot of money and countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears. That's just a fact of owning a car like this... be prepared to deal with it.

If you want some good advice on where to start spending your $$$, you're going to have to answer that ^ first...mainly for yourself. Once you have a well-defined plan in place, you'll be much better prepared to ask the right questions and get the right answers.

If you want an immediate answer... I have no freakin' idea what size injectors or fuel pump you need. (See what I mean?)

 

[H@xtGSX]

Well said. Pay attention to that post. These are mechanic cars for just about anything past stock, and even then, it is going to break. If you make the same mistake I did when I started messing around with forced induction cars and throw parts at everything without knowing the "why" behind it, you will be poor with a pissed off wife/girlfriend riding your ass for blowing all that money on the car and not them.

I just read back over the last page. Yea, I am not afraid of being wrong. It's not the first time and surely will not be the last. I try not to be a dipschitt, but sometimes I just can't help myself. It always sucks to find out after you've shoved your boot far enough down your throat to give yourself heartburn though.

 

[nightstocker99]

This is what I think is going on first, the o2 dump is messing with o2 reading causing your car to have an unmetered exhaust leak. The sensor is suppose to read a certain reading and its not getting the correct oxygen reading. The pcm thinks your car is running rich because of it but the pcm is cutting ful trim. It is trying to correct the itself. So that is now two problems you have there is a bad a/f reading because the exhaust is being "lost" from the o2 dump. The o2 thinks it should see certain oxygen read but it doesn't so the pcm cuts short tirm and long tim fuel trim. Basically spraes less fuel from th injectors. The o2 sensor only meters air but is watched be the pcm. So the pcm thinks you are running lean (but you're not) so it cuts fuel and leans the car out even more.

Basically you have a really bad exhaust leak/emissons problem. Its like having a hole in your exhaust before the cat.

Fix: replace the os housing with an evo 3 one or get wideband and tune the car. Whichever you have money for. The o2 replace is cheaper but the tune is better.

Get an a/f meter

Also you should really get a fuel pressure regulator. Your injectors are probably working at their max. You get bigger injectors without a fpr and you will blow your engine.

Does anyone else agree?

 

[volkerding95GSX]

STOP!!!! Dont buy anything and think its gonna just solve your problem. Do a proper BLT please! If that checks out fine then proceed to more testing. You are gonna waste money doing this. I understand that you are gonna upgrade anyway but it will do no good if all that boost your gonna build is leaking out!! BLT is maintenance on a dsm so might as well get used to it.

Don't worry, I'll be doing a proper BLT before I buy anything. I'm not just "buying anything", I'm researching and asking questions on here and making a parts list of what I need and will post it once I complete the list. Thanks for your concern though, you're completely right.

 

[Calan]

This is what I think is going on first, the o2 dump is messing with o2 reading becausing your car to have an unmetered exhaust leak. The sensor is suppose to read a certain reading and its not getting the correct oxygen reading. The pcm thinks your car is running rich because of it but the fuel trim is cutting fue. It is trying to correct the itself. So that is now two problems you have there a bad a/f reading because the exhaust is being "lost" from the dump. The o2 things it should see this but it doesn't so the pcm cuts short tirm and long tim fuel trim. Basically spraes less fuel from th injectors. The o2 sensor only meters air but is watched be the pcm.

Does anyone else agree?

I'm not sure I even understand what you are saying, so I can't really agree.

 

[volkerding95GSX]

There's countless choices, and just as many opinions. The only way to be sure you get what you "need" is by doing a LOT of reading and research, and then combining what you learn with your goals. Which brings us to...

Setting realistic goals for your car, and realistic expectations of where you may want to be a couple years from now, is the most important step. This includes being able to identify:

1. A budget. This doesn't just mean "I have $1000 to spend"; you also have to think about repairs, getting everything in shape to handle any power upgrades you have planned, more (or different) fuel, possible insurance rate increases, track fees and costs (if you plan on tracking it at some point), tires, etc.

2. Your abilities and basic skills as a mechanic and tuner. A huge part of successfully owning and running a DSM is being able to figure things out and work on the car yourself...unless you are literally made of money. If you lack the tools, space, or ability to do regular work on your car and don't have bottomless pockets, then be prepared to admit it and think about other options.

3. Your tenaciousness and patience. The car will break. You will make bad decisions. You will lose money on replacement parts and upgrades. You will alternate between hating your car and loving it, at least until you have invested a lot of money and countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears. That's just a fact of owning a car like this... be prepared to deal with it.

If you want some good advice on where to start spending your $$$, you're going to have to answer that ^ first...mainly for yourself. Once you have a well-defined plan in place, you'll be much better prepared to ask the right questions and get the right answers.

If you want an immediate answer... I have no freakin' idea what size injectors or fuel pump you need. (See what I mean?)

1. Budget: I have about 800 in the Eclipse fund right now, and I put back about 150/ month towards it. I'm not planning on tracking it, just want a tune and enjoy it on Missouri county roads on nice days.

2. My abilities and basic skills as a mechanic and tuner are VERY lacking, I'll be the first to admit. I've only installed bolt ons, and have no experience whatsoever with fuel/tuning upgrades. I have a garages with adequate hand tools, an air compressor, and basic air tools.

3. My tenaciousness and patience are in the right place, I believe. I'm in no hurry to get the car done, even though I'd rather have it done sooner than later. I'll do whatever it takes to get the car done right understanding there are going to be challenges that you mentioned along the way.

My goal stays the same: Get the car running right by fixing any boost leaks and getting a good Air/Fuel ratio via ECMLink, all while leaving room to grow with a FMIC/bigger turbo, ect, down the road.

 

[Calan]

My goal stays the same: Get the car running right by fixing any boost leaks and getting a good Air/Fuel ratio via ECMLink, all while leaving room to grow with a FMIC/bigger turbo, ect, down the road.

Your goal isn't well enough defined. Take just the first thing you mentioned for example; ECMLink.

Should you get just the lite version, or the full version? There are a lot of things that would go into that decision for me, but I'll give you one right off the top of my head. You mentioned buying the MBC. If you bought the full version of Link, you have access to the built in gear-based boost control, which only requires an inexpensive solenoid. That means that you have much better control of your boost/traction, which can come in handy depending on how much of your budget goes towards a suspension and tires. (BTW - There is no reason to buy a MBC; you can make one for about $15).

ECMLink allows you to simulate the front O2 signal from your 0-5v wideband input, but most widebands also provide a simulated 0-1v NB output that you can run directly into the factory front O2 connection. Why does it matter? Because this may impact your choice on which WB to buy. Do you need one with a good simulated O2 output, or will you be running a factory O2 sensor, or letting Link simulate it internally? If you use Link's built-in simulation, it frees up an input which can be used to log other important things like fuel pressure. So maybe some of that budget could be used to buy a FP sender...which in turn means you won't need to buy a mechanical gauge to mount to the AFPR.

These are very simple examples, but you get the idea. Everything you do will impact everything else you do, so you need a very-well defined plan in order to make the smartest choices up front. Saying "I want the car to be quick" or "I want it to run good" doesn't get you far; you need an actual plan... the more detailed, the better.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Your injectors are probably working at their max. You get bigger injectors without a fpr and you will blow your engine.

Does anyone else agree?

They were right at the beginning of this. The stock injectors have a little room with that turbo. They aren't ideal, but they can handle a small 16g at lower psi.

Bigger injectors without an fpr won't blow up your engine. If you have no way to compensate for them, it'll run rich, maybe not run at all and flood. That's all. The fpr really has little relation in this context.

 

[jtmcinder]

Um, the very first post of this thread says that the car idles rough. I don't care what turbo he put on the car, he is not running out of injector at idle.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Um, the very first post of this thread says that the car idles rough. I don't care what turbo he put on the car, he is not running out of injector at idle.

If this is responding to me, I agree with you. (previous page)

 

[dsmspick]

I live in KC if you need help with anything let me know. My dad and I love these things.

 

[wranglerunner22]

I think its crankwalk. Now...

Crank Walk - YouTube

Lol my buddy made this video a few years back.

 

[kennyg]

Lol my buddy made this video a few years back.

Thats awesome!

 

[Mjrsplat]

Sounds like a solution lies in the tune. Also after a while you becomeq acclimated to the power your car makes. Take a ride in the passenger seet, it will feel faster.

 

[awdjosh]

Truly...I think either its a bad knock sensor or a boost leak. Did you check the gasket between the exhaust manifold and the turbo? That'll make it feel like a boost leak and not always make a loud exhaust leak sound(experience -_- ). I've had 37 dsm's ranging from fully built big turbo setups to peiced together half ass'd builds that still worked haha, and if that knock sensor if dead or dying(phantom knock) it will pull timing which feels exactly as your explaining. Do the boost leak test, do a compression test just to make sure alls good and from there start replacing knock sensor and MAF. I highly doubt your running out of fuel like some others stated, at 10psi its flowing like a 14B around 16-17psi as its no where close to efficiency range.

Your on a pretty tight budgt and need to not think of getting abunch of baller and rediculous big power parts...your car will never get finished and end up for sale hating it.

Get this stuff:

Used dsmlink v2 $300 (you already have an eprom so just get it socketed $40)

Evo8 injectors $125 used

255 walbaro $80-100

Aem wideband $150 new from extremepsi

JoeP MBC $50 used $100 new...wouldn't matter to me Aslong as its in good shape

FPR $? You can find used AFPRs for around $100 with SS fuel lines

So for what you have saved up you can have the link and all the tuning capabilities up to around 350whp, which is REALISTIC! Don't get head over heels and beat yourself up.

I'd also ARP the head just to be on the safe side.

 

[H@xtGSX]

So for what you have saved up you can have the link and all the tuning capabilities up to around 350whp, which is REALISTIC! Don't get head over heels and beat yourself up.

I'd also ARP the head just to be on the safe side.

350whp may not sound like a lot with some of the big numbers that are regularly thrown around with these cars, but it is more than enough to blow the doors off most cars. 350 at the ground feels like driving a missile. ARP's are good insurance too, once you cross over 300hp. They are just easier to work with also.

 

[erock1399]

It looks like its time for a tune and a ecu upgrade

 

[tsd123]

+1 for the knock sensor. Mine was bad a while back, and that was the biggest pain ever. I was on stock boost, and getting 42 counts of knock.

 

[91stocker]

Lol my buddy made this video a few years back.

Haha nice. That shit cracks me up.

 

[volkerding95GSX]

Here is a video I took today of the idle, which is better since the 'fake' boost leak test I did.
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX idle and small revs - YouTube

Here are a couple of short 2nd gear pulls to ~4k RPM. There is , however no "Umph" or hard pull like I used to feel when the boost kicked in. I turned the boost controller all the way down, which used to mean it would go no higher than 5 psi. Now it goes to 10 psi, however you can see it holds and doesn't creep. It also sounds weird to me under boost, like more of a "HAAWW" sound instead of the old "FFSSSSSSS"
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX 2nd gear small pulls - YouTube

Hope this helps!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Pre-turbo exhaust leak?

Edit: Re-read and noticed you said you are dumping the WG? That's where the loud exhaust noise is coming from. You may indeed still have a pre-turbo exhaust leak, and potentially need to adjust the wastegate as well.

You should only hear the dump-tube when it cracks open at full boost, whatever its set to.

 

[volkerding95GSX]

Pre-turbo exhaust leak?

Edit: Re-read and noticed you said you are dumping the WG? That's where the loud exhaust noise is coming from. You may indeed still have a pre-turbo exhaust leak, and potentially need to adjust the wastegate as well.

You should only hear the dump-tube when it cracks open at full boost, whatever its set to.

Just by eye balling it I don't see any exhaust gas leaking before the turbo.

And yes, I am dumping the WG. I've heard dumped WGs before, and mine sounds a little odd compared to the other ones. You can't really hear it on the video, but it almost sounds like a hollow/leaking sound.

Also, I've never had any problems with the WG before, and have never touched it, so I doubt that's the problem, but could always check. Thanks!

 

[casuprock]

Why would the compression drop if he's been running lean?



Horrible advice. The knock sensor pulls timing to prevent damage to the engine; pulling it is just asking for more trouble.

compression drop see "burnt valve"

The knock sensors on these cars are accelerometers prone to phantom knock. I'm not suggesting he goes out and does hill climbs after pulling the sensor. Duh.

+1 for the knock sensor. Mine was bad a while back, and that was the biggest pain ever. I was on stock boost, and getting 42 counts of knock.

Yep...